Navy aircraft UK carrier will be sold after three years, no jets.

[ZULU]

HMS Illustrious
HMS Cumberland
HMS Campbeltown
HMS Chatham
HMS Cornwall

All have proven their worth in the past 3 years conducting successful Anti-Piracy Operations in the Gulf/Indian Ocean.

HMS Liverpool
HMS Manchester
HMS Gloucester
HMS Edinburgh
HMS York

Over the past 14 years have intercepted over £100 Million worth of drugs alone.

[DeV]

Ships to go, according to seawaves:

HMS Ark Royal R 07 Decomm TBA

HMS Illustrious R 08 Decomm TBA
HMS Cumberland F 85 Decomm TBA
HMS Campbeltown F 86 Decomm TBA
HMS Chatham F 87 Decomm TBA
HMS Cornwall F 99 Decomm TBA
RFA TBA Bay Class L 3... Decomm TBA
HMS Liverpool D 92 Decomm TBA
HMS Manchester D 95 Decomm TBA
HMS Gloucester D 96 Decomm TBA
HMS Edinburgh D 97 Decomm TBA
HMS York D 98 Decomm TBA
HMS TBA MCM M??? Decomm TBA

Thats a big capability loss. The frigates and destroyers are the workhorses of the fleet, and they aren't being replaced on a 1 for 1 basis. The new frigate programme isn't even on the drawing board yet..

The Type 42s (the 5 vessels if "D" pennant numbers above, 1 has already been decommissioned I think) are being replaced by 6 x Type 45s (a much more capable vessel when its main weapon is operational), it was to be up to 8. These vessels were being discommissioned anyway and are being replaced on a 1-for-1 basis.

They are getting rid of the Type 22s (if memory serves there was 4 left, these are vessels based on a design that was served in the Falklands (the 4 vessels if "F" pennant numbers above)) - these won't be replaced. The Type 23 (built with the lessons learnt from the Falklands) will be replaced by Type 26 in the future (these are fairly modern vessels anyway so that decision will not need to be taken for a while.

Having said that a hull can't be in 2 places at once.

[DeV]

HMS Illustrious
HMS Cumberland
HMS Campbeltown
HMS Chatham
HMS Cornwall

All have proven their worth in the past 3 years conducting successful Anti-Piracy Operations in the Gulf/Indian Ocean.

HMS Liverpool
HMS Manchester
HMS Gloucester
HMS Edinburgh
HMS York

Over the past 14 years have intercepted over £100 Million worth of drugs alone.

That doesn't mean that there replacement won't be able to, assuming they keep a vessel in the Indian Ocean and Carribean.

[Aidan]

Thats a big capability loss.

Essentially, the RN has paid with it's frigates and destroyers to keep the carrier programme. That's a clear and rationale strategic choice, and one that's entirely in keeping with the themes of SDR, the UK has long given up on it's empire, or on having a 'global presence'; instead they're focusing more on mission specific forces that can actually deploy, and play a serious role in major conflicts. In naval terms, they will still have just about enough surface vessels to have two carrier groups at sea (providing they keep both carriers), and to defend them against the vast majority of likely threats - they can basically project power in a real and meaningful way to help deliver on the UKs startegic objectives. That's not a capacity to be sniffed at, and it keeps them in the first order of naval powers in a way that a rake of Type 22s and Type 42s cannot, despite the fact that it will reduce their ability to have ships to fly the flag in all corners of the world.

In the light of any future EU CFSP, this is also a good thing - there are plenty of EU countries that can put Frigates (or Mine countermeasure vessels, or PVs - hint, hint ) in the water, but very few that can field flat top carriers with 'proper' CATOBAR aircraft. Flat tops can also operate proper AEW aircraft, which have a vastly better performance than the Merlin based design that has been mooted in the past, and would be a major force multiplier for any fleet.

[DeV]

What you forget dev is, the remaining type 42 are the last of a much greater number. Over 10 years, there was a total of 14 built. Coventry and Sheffield were lost during the Falklands war, Birmingham was scrapped in 1999. But Glasgow, Newcastle, Cardiff, Exeter, Southampton and Nottingham were only decomissioned between 2008 and February this year. These are the ships the Type 45 replaced. So it isnt 1 for 1 it is 1 for 2.

Those were all decommissioned as part of previous cuts having said that they were options on 2.

The Type 26 is still only in the sketch stage. They aren't expected to see water until 2020 at the earliest. Type 23, thirteen remaining, will have to struggle on until then. Assuming they don't sell them to chile or brazil first of course. The commenced service in 1990.

The Type 26 is the medium-long term replacement (what they have said is that the fleet will consist of Type 45 and Type 26 (I would assume they will keep Type 23 until it is replaced), the Type 23 vessel is very capable and I think the newest of vessels of the type/class).

In naval terms, they will still have just about enough surface vessels to have two carrier groups at sea (providing they keep both carriers), and to defend them against the vast majority of likely threats - they can basically project power in a real and meaningful way to help deliver on the UKs startegic objectives.

They will only have 1 operational carrier and from reading the review it looks like a amphibious task group.

[easyrider]

Ocean is definitely for the chop before Vince. She wasn't built to naval standards, and was expected to only have a 20 year life span. Vince can easily do what ocean used to, up to point.

Invincible was decommissioned in 2005 and is beyond repair at this stage. Illustrious is undergoing refit at the moment, due out of the dockyard next year. Ocean had her refit a couple of years ago and is a lot cheaper to operate.

[mugs]

Am I the only one baffelled by their decision to put HMS Ocean, the navies specially build helicopter Carrier/Amphibious assault ship, into reserve and instead operate heli's off an older aircraft carrier??

Also, is it not more expensive to operate a carrier with a catapult?

Or would the high cost of operating the VTOL f35 cancel out the savings made with a carrier without the catapult?

[ZULU]

Me too. Especially when 3 Cmdo aren't being touched.

[mugs]

Me too. Especially when 3 Cmdo aren't being touched.

I mean why not scrap one carrier (which by-the-way I thought there were three Invincible Class Carriers in service) moth ball the other Carrier and moth ball all but 12 Harriers and keep a Squadron of 12 going under RAF command to keep the skills.

That way if things did kick off, before the fully equipt QE Class arrived with aircraft, then they could be put back into service.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

So long as the all arms capability is maintained! Remember there are still conventional battles! Other countries have used heavy armour in Afghanistan to good effect.

As so a recruitment ban until 2015 so, the document says redundanies (again!).

how many MBT's have other nations fielded in Afghanistan?

i think the Danes have up to 8 Leopard 2's in theatre - hardly a conventional force.

we have over 400 Challenger 2 MBT's - being left with 240 after the cuts will still leave us in a position to fight in conventional warfare and we can easily field more MBT's than any other nation, other than the US so your doom and gloom regarding our MBT's is way off the mark.

and who said anything about a recruiting ban? there will no doubt be some compulsory redundancies but we will still be recruiting thousands annually, and promoting as usual.
so even lads from Ireland can still come and join us if they don't make the '200' at home this year.

[ZULU]

Why the troublesome, expensive, and inflexible submarines were spared though is even harder to understand.

Sneaky beaky stuff? Long range strike capability?

[DeV]

Am I the only one baffelled by their decision to put HMS Ocean, the navies specially build helicopter Carrier/Amphibious assault ship, into reserve and instead operate heli's off an older aircraft carrier??

The decision hasn't been made yet, there is to be a review as to which should go.

Or would the high cost of operating the VTOL f35 cancel out the savings made with a carrier without the catapult?

Absolutely!

I mean why not scrap one carrier (which by-the-way I thought there were three Invincible Class Carriers in service) moth ball the other Carrier and moth ball all but 12 Harriers and keep a Squadron of 12 going under RAF command to keep the skills.

That way if things did kick off, before the fully equipt QE Class arrived with aircraft, then they could be put back into service.

With the Invicible class was was in major refit, one operational and 1 ???? (I think in reserve) at any one time. It would cost an absolute fortune to just keep 12 Harriers!

and who said anything about a recruiting ban? there will no doubt be some compulsory redundancies but we will still be recruiting thousands annually, and promoting as usual.
so even lads from Ireland can still come and join us if they don't make the '200' at home this year.

You will be definitely be recruiting less as less places to fill plus your fully manned.

I think the Invasion of iraq will be seen as the last great tank battle.

They probably said that around the time of the liberation of Kuwait?!

[RoyalGreenJacket]

You will be definitely be recruiting less as less places to fill plus your fully manned.

perhaps a little less but still thousands annually - hardly the 'recruiting ban until 2015' that you originally stated.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there,
just a point to easyrider; gas turbine powered carriers generate more than enough steam for a catapult system.Considering the size of a carrier, the cat system is actually quite small, being mostly confined to directly under the deck.
Apart from all that, can someone explain why the RN are in the Caribbean, given that it's so close to the USA anyway?
regards
GttC

[faughanballagh]

Hi there,
just a point to easyrider; gas turbine powered carriers generate more than enough steam for a catapult system.Considering the size of a carrier, the cat system is actually quite small, being mostly confined to directly under the deck.
Apart from all that, can someone explain why the RN are in the Caribbean, given that it's so close to the USA anyway?
regards
GttC

Because there are British territories in the Caribbean. So they have a stake in things like counter-drug and hurricane relief missions. Nonetheless, there's of course been a cutback in this due to budget constraints.

[Stoker]

Hi there,
just a point to easyrider; gas turbine powered carriers generate more than enough steam for a catapult system.Considering the size of a carrier, the cat system is actually quite small, being mostly confined to directly under the deck.?
regards
GttC

I am not to sure on that GttC, I think they need a lot of steam at full boiler pressure, 40 to 50 bar. so much so that all boilers have to be fired up to full pressure and on line, this is a lot of work (for Stokers) and expensive. They also need large steam accumulators to store the steam before each launch. Would the gas turbines have that much heat energy in their exhaust?. They would be steaming at full speed, what would the exh. temp. be 400---500 C.?
An alternative would be the system the USN is currently fitting to their newest carrier ( USS Ford ?) which I think uses an electrically powered linear motor. She is not due to be commissioned until 2015. Even that would use huge amounts of power, no problem on a nuclear powered job.

[ZULU]

EMALS = Electro Magnetic Aircraft Launch System - aka rail gun

http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm...6-993448FADC23

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there,
Gas turbines will give you as much steam energy as you need.After all, how do you think the Ringsends of the world work? Instead of filling a furnace with coal,to heat water, to make steam to drive a steam turbine, you attach a jet engine, run it on diesel or gas or whatever can be vapourised and let it do the heavy lifting. Gas turbines on ships drive the props thru a reduction gearbox or else make steam and let a steam turbine drive the props thru the gearbox. Exhaust temps would be higher than 500 deg C, with around 750 C being typical.Gas turbines are also combined with diesels (CODAG) to allow for fast or slow speed work.
regards
GttC

[DeV]

Apart from all that, can someone explain why the RN are in the Caribbean, given that it's so close to the USA anyway?
regards
GttC

As faughanballagh says protectorates/territorities (there were Harriers in Belize for a good while), but also contribution to fight on drugs, disaster relief etc

[Pod]

how many MBT's have other nations fielded in Afghanistan?

i think the Danes have up to 8 Leopard 2's in theatre - hardly a conventional force.

I believe the the Cannucks have a reinforced squadron (?around 20)

[Pod]

I think the Invasion of iraq will be seen as the last great tank battle.

Until the next one comes along- remember Yom Kippur and particularly the batlle for the Golan Heights -72 IASRAELI tanks versus 500 plus Syrian armoured vehicles icluding 200+ tanks

Why the troublesome, expensive, and inflexible? submarines were spared though is even harder to understand.

Far more flexabilty in the delivery of the ultimate sanction than surface based assests I would think

[Jungle]

I believe the the Cannucks have a reinforced squadron (?around 20)

That's correct, all Leo 2A6s. We may still have some Leo C2 in theater, not sure.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

I believe the the Cannucks have a reinforced squadron (?around 20)

That's correct, all Leo 2A6s. We may still have some Leo C2 in theater, not sure.

we will still have over 240 Challenger 2's to play with so these cuts have no bearing on how we operate MBT's in Afghanistan because at the moment it's mostly the Danish (and perhaps some Canadians) providing the MBT support for British Battle-groups - a decision taken by the Labour government that still remains.

[easyrider]

Ark Royal now for sale on ebay.

[Stoker]

Hi there,
Gas turbines will give you as much steam energy as you need.After all, how do you think the Ringsends of the world work? Instead of filling a furnace with coal,to heat water, to make steam to drive a steam turbine, you attach a jet engine, run it on diesel or gas or whatever can be vapourised and let it do the heavy lifting. Gas turbines on ships drive the props thru a reduction gearbox or else make steam and let a steam turbine drive the props thru the gearbox. Exhaust temps would be higher than 500 deg C, with around 750 C being typical.Gas turbines are also combined with diesels (CODAG) to allow for fast or slow speed work.
regards
GttC

Thanks for that GttC, I have operated several marine steam plants so I have a good idea how they work including the Combined power plants at Ringsend and Northwall.
Every powerplant tries to be as efficient as possible by extracting as much heat energy as is practical, but the problem for naval vessels, as distinct from Merchant vessels or land based generating stations is that they do not operate for long periods at full power. Our own Naval ships have no heat recovery systems, as far as I know no Naval Gas turbine powered vessels generate steam using their exhaust, if they recover any heat it would go to supplement their Hotel services .
The big advantage VSTOL Carriers have is that they do not need steam at high pressures and in large quantities therefore they can be powered by gas turbines and are not so expensive that only the US and France can afford, or want. If the RN modify one or both of the new carriers to CATOBAR ships at this stage the changes and expense would be massive, no matter how much provision they will claim to have made. To get a light switch moved when a ship is being built is a big deal that causes the Builders to tear their hair out and has the Accountants reaching for their calculators to add more naughts.