Navy aircraft UK carrier will be sold after three years, no jets.

[Barry]

If the RN modify one or both of the new carriers to CATOBAR ships at this stage the changes and expense would be massive, no matter how much provision they will claim to have made.

The new carriers have been designed from the start to make it possible to install electromagnetic catapults if required. No need to worry about steam generation, all they'll need is electricity.

[paul g]

Watched this week on the BBC last night, Michael Portillo was on with Alistair Darling, Portillo raised the issue of the carriers, pointing out that they were in his words white elephants, that were of no real use in modern warfare.

Portillo also made the point that they were built in Gordon Brown's home town employing Brown's voters, a point followed up by the times today

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi Stoker,
Fair point but if you already know the answer, why ask the question? The largest one I worked on was a Frame 5.The rest, including marine duty engines, were up to 15000 shp.
regards
GttC

[paul g]

Portillo is, unusually, talking out of his arse.

The scots are only one of the shipbuilders building the carriers. Appledore are building modules for it, from start to finish, as are Cammel Laird, in Birkinhead. Modules are also being built in Portsmouth.

If he thinks flat tops are of no use to modern warfare, why are China so keen to get one? Why are the US investing in more? Why is every major power doing its damndest to stay in or enter the carrier game?

For China prestige, and the US are questioning as to whether they need so many of them . Portillo pointed out that they are vulnerable to missiles, and deploying one will need escorts, which have been gutted to build them

As with all defence spending there is an element of parish pump politics, building carriers keeps lots of people employed including those in Gordon Brown's hometown, but i think portillo made the point that the money could have been better spent elsewhere.

[smegers]

why are China so keen to get one?

China has one. Its the sister ship to the Admiral Kuznetsov, Varyag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...strategypage-7


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[warthog]

Vince is heading for the breakers.
A sad, disgraceful decision.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12848226

shame the Fleet air Arm museum couldn't have been moved to it,like the intrepid
http://www.intrepidmuseum.org/

park it up alongside HMS Belfast in London!

[RoyalGreenJacket]

Vince is heading for the breakers.
A sad, disgraceful decision.

i agree Goldie - i'd rather see the back of tens of thousand civvies within the MoD so we could keep a carrier but it was not to be.

[Orion]

excellent videos watched them this morning.

[GoneToTheCanner]

You know, it makes you wonder how the American yards managed to build their Essex class carriers without the benefit of computers, in WW II?
regards
GttC

[easyrider]

Didn't matter what size H&W's crane is: Belfast is not in Gordon Brown's constituency.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

what are the cranes for anyhow Goldie? the new Royal Navy carrier?

speaking of which - i was in the Isle of Wight all weekend and the USS George Bush Snr is anchored in Portsmouth - a proper warship which looked almost alien with all it's aircraft on deck.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

It's one crane, a Goliath, was put up in Rosyth where all the carrier bits will be put together, in a specially expanded drydock.

Even though the facilities already existed in H&W.

oh right, maybe its to do with cost and security of the facility aswell as the thousands (many probably from England and Scotland) who would be working on her in Belfast?

i have no idea, unless it is purely political.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

fair one.

[danno]

Any hope/fear the money intended to be used for the mothball and unavoidably payable under the contract could be paid to the same yard to build T26s.

[Orion]

UK MOD is not happy - their response today ....

NAO report into Carrier Strike costs
Following the release of the National Audit Office (NAO) report into Carrier Strike, the media have suggested that the cost of building the two new aircraft carriers will reach £10bn. This is not true. The £10bn referred to in the report is the estimated costs for the Carrier Strike project as a whole, which includes the costs of acquiring the Carrier Variant of the fifth-generation Joint Strike Fighter, the costs of building the two Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers, and converting one to operate the new aircraft.
In response to the National Audit Office's report into Carrier Strike, Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox said: "I am disappointed that the NAO were not able to produce an agreed report. We inherited a massive Defence deficit which included a carrier project that was already £1.6bn over budget. The Strategic Defence and Security Review put this programme back on track and delivered £3.4bn of overall savings to Carrier Strike. The NAO has noted that our decision to build the second new aircraft carrier makes financial sense, and supports UK industry and the significant cost and capability advantages of the aircraft we now plan to fly from it.
"Converting one of the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers to operate the more capable and cost effective Carrier Variant of the Joint Strike Fighter fast jet will maximise our military capability and enhance interoperability with our allies. Operating the more cost effective Carrier Variant fast jet will also over the longer term offset the conversion costs. In the meantime we have rightly assessed that we can rely on our extensive basing and overflight rights as we are doing to great effect in Libya.
"In addition to the new carrier capability operating the fifth-generation Joint Strike Fighter, our vision for Future Force 2020 includes a Royal Navy operating seven new Astute Class submarines, the new Type 26 Global Combat Ship and Type 45 destroyers."
The Ministry of Defence's Permanent Secretary, Ursula Brennan, said: "I am concerned that the NAO have taken the unusual step of publishing this report without agreeing the final text with me, as Accounting Officer, as required by their own guidance."

I thought I read somewhere that HMS Prince of Wales was to be re-designated Ark Royal

[spider]

Looks like the government may have to reverse its decision to go with cats and traps.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17233867

[Turkey]

Looks like the government may have to reverse its decision to go with cats and traps.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17233867

I don't see that they have any choice, IMHO they will operate either F-18's or a navalised version of the Typhoon, the F35 looks like a seriously dead duck. Getting rid of the Harriers and the Invincible was very stupid..

[spider]

The whole thing has the potential to turn into an embarrassing debacle of Nimrod proportions...

Ironic that the ships can be built, but the biggest problem is what will fly off them.

You'd be tempted to think they would have thought about and made concrete decisions first!!!

Naval Typhoon anyone?

[Turkey]

The whole thing has the potential to turn into an embarrassing debacle of Nimrod proportions...

Ironic that the ships can be built, but the biggest problem is what will fly off them.

You'd be tempted to think they would have thought about and made concrete decisions first!!!

Naval Typhoon anyone?

Err: http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation...et_723470.html

[spider]

This Wiki article is interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofig...ed_Eurofighter

If I am reading that right they are talking about launching using a ski jump, then recovery by arrestor hook.

Given the problems with the US programme, this might end up being an option which will be considered further.

[Archimedes]

Err: http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation...et_723470.html

If the Typhoon is to be navalised it doesn't look as if it will be done via an India deal
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-16809532

[spider]

Latest on the unfolding debacle

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17437272

[danno]

Have they given up on calling the POW Ark Royal.

[ropebag]

i'm afraid that this is going to make Nimrod MRA4, Nimrod AEW, Tornado ADV, L85, FRES, and Astute look like smart, on-time and on-budget procurement triumphs.

lots of issues going around the moment - the cost of changing the carriers from STOVL to C&T, the likelyhood of F-35B actually surviving US defence budget cuts (its belived that Cameron got a Gypsies warning from Obama about that on his recent US trip), BAES throwing a wobbly because they get more out of the B than they do the A or C, and of course the crabs trying to persuading the PM that he should go for F-35B because a) it means they won't have to spend much time at sea, and b) it keeps fixed wing aviation in their hands - if we go for two carriers with F-35C/SuperHornet/Rafale then the FAA will be the big, hard boys of UK military fixed wing aviation, and the RAF will get QRA and airshows.

i'm still offering £50 on the carriers being cancelled in the 2015 SDSR (and us getting about £10m in scrap value), with F-35 being kicked into the long grass and eventually cancelled in 2020...

[ropebag]

announcement on JSF at 1115 Thurs 10th May. looks certain to be the 'B' with no firm commitment on two in-service carriers.

i've still got £50 on eventual cancellation when the public cost of 'B' gets to $150m a shot.

its a frightening, alarmingly bad decision - and directly in the face of US advice on the issue. brilliant...