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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    Fancy fans for 30% less range when the carriers are big enough for F-35Cs using cats!
    it might be true on wikipedia, but its not true in real life.

    landing the C is inherantly more difficult and significantly more prone to the whims of fortune of carrier aviation than the B - the oft quoted 'its got more range' is, in fact, entirely eaten up by the need to carry much larger reserves of fuel, either to hang around waiting for a slot or to go to a diversion airfield. the B on the other hand has far less problem landing in very shitty weather, is far more able to land on the carrier when another aircraft is in difficulty, and could - at a 'well, its either this or throw a £100m airframe into the sea - land on a T45/RFA/LPD. try that with a C...

    the one advantage the C has over the B os the ability to take a 2000lb bomb internally vs the B's 1000lb bomb. thats it, everything else about operating the C is more difficult.

    the training/refit/maintainance cycle for operating two carriers with the C would mean that there would be a gap of availability every 18 moths or so where there was no trained up air group and no operational carrier for them to fly off. the training burden of operating the B is far less - and we know this because we have ex-Harrier pilots who flew off the Invincible class flying F-35B in in the states who have also flown the F/A-18 from USN carriers - so the work up period is far shorter, meaning that with two carriers in commission we will be able to have one available at all times.

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  3. #177
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The UK haven't finalised there order of F35s yet BTW.

    Afaik they are going to be RAF multi-role a/c manned by RAF & FAA.

    All the pilots being embarked will need to be carrier qualified (which limits your pool of available aircrew, it's unlikely they will all be (even if simpler than cats & traps).

    A fairly significant portion of your aircrew are going to be tied up in providing air defence to the carrier (which means obviously they need to be AD combat ready (unclear if all a/c will have AD capabilities and all aircrew will be trained to that status).

    All in all, the RN will get its biggest ever vessels in other to carry aircraft but the combined RAF & FAA will not be able to deploy enough a/c (or aircrew) to provide more than a token carrier strike capability against near peer threats. Especially not when the same a/c and aircrew will also be required for land based ops.

  4. #178
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    My understanding is that there will be a Squadron of RN (809NAS) and Squadron of RAF (617Sqn) available to deploy aboard whichever ship is not mothballed. Presumably one to do CAP while the other does Strike. Meanwhile no sign of a dedicated AEWACS carrier aircraft in the inventory, unless you count the bolt on Crowsnest radar of the Merlin.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  5. #179
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    My understanding is that there will be a Squadron of RN (809NAS) and Squadron of RAF (617Sqn) available to deploy aboard whichever ship is not mothballed. Presumably one to do CAP while the other does Strike. Meanwhile no sign of a dedicated AEWACS carrier aircraft in the inventory, unless you count the bolt on Crowsnest radar of the Merlin.
    Not sure if 100% clear yet

    AEW&C wise AFAIK there is no proposal beyond Crowsnest

  6. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post

    AEW&C wise AFAIK there is no proposal beyond Crowsnest
    The only proposal, or theoretical proposal, is an AEW version of the V-22, but it would be arse bitingly expensive and not much better than the Crowsnest system.

    V-22 also takes up a great deal of room, and unlike Crowsnest you couldn't stick it on a T45 or RFA to squeeze more F-35 on the carriers.

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  8. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Not sure if 100% clear yet

    AEW&C wise AFAIK there is no proposal beyond Crowsnest
    Seemingly it is to be a new version of same;

    http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and...r-skilled-jobs

  9. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    They are deepening Portsmouth to accomodate them...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17012417
    These works are now complete;

    http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and...-in-carrier-wo

  10. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    All the pilots being embarked will need to be carrier qualified (which limits your pool of available aircrew, it's unlikely they will all be (even if simpler than cats & traps).
    'carrier qualification' will be part of the OCU programme for F-35 aircrew. based on current, live experience with F-35B operating from USN platforms smaller than the QE's, carrier qualification on F-35B will be easier than it was on Harriers, and you'll recall from 1982 that the Harrier carrier qualification was 'fly to Portsmouth and land on the big grey thing...'

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    A fairly significant portion of your aircrew are going to be tied up in providing air defence to the carrier (which means obviously they need to be AD combat ready (unclear if all a/c will have AD capabilities and all aircrew will be trained to that status).
    AD is part of the OCU syllabus for all UK F-35B aircrew. all UK F-35B will be (as in are now, and every one coming off the production line will also be..) fittED for and with AIM-120C and AIM-132, and the integration for Meteor BVRAAM is funded. all F-35B radar - which is an upgrade of the radar used by the F-22 - and other avionics systems are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    All in all, the RN will get its biggest ever vessels in other to carry aircraft but the combined RAF & FAA will not be able to deploy enough a/c (or aircrew) to provide more than a token carrier strike capability against near peer threats. Especially not when the same a/c and aircrew will also be required for land based ops.
    the Force Element @ Readiness for UK F-35 is projected at around 80 airframes. you can fit about 40 F-35B on a QE carrier, and the assumption is that while we may be able to surge both in an emergency, we can only be certain of one being available - so upto 40 on the carrier, and 40 for land based operations together with around 100 Typhoon FGR4.

    which 'near peer' adversary do you have in mind?

  11. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    'carrier qualification' will be part of the OCU programme for F-35 aircrew. based on current, live experience with F-35B operating from USN platforms smaller than the QE's, carrier qualification on F-35B will be easier than it was on Harriers, and you'll recall from 1982 that the Harrier carrier qualification was 'fly to Portsmouth and land on the big grey thing...'



    AD is part of the OCU syllabus for all UK F-35B aircrew. all UK F-35B will be (as in are now, and every one coming off the production line will also be..) fittED for and with AIM-120C and AIM-132, and the integration for Meteor BVRAAM is funded. all F-35B radar - which is an upgrade of the radar used by the F-22 - and other avionics systems are the same.



    the Force Element @ Readiness for UK F-35 is projected at around 80 airframes. you can fit about 40 F-35B on a QE carrier, and the assumption is that while we may be able to surge both in an emergency, we can only be certain of one being available - so upto 40 on the carrier, and 40 for land based operations together with around 100 Typhoon FGR4.
    To have all crews trained (and current) in all roles (and all aircraft capable of all roles) will be new.

    Generally there are differences in aircraft (eg Tornado and Typhoon), where different versions, tranches and squadrons specialise.

    If true that can only be a good thing.



    which 'near peer' adversary do you have in mind?
    Who knows

  12. #185
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    The days of specialised single role Fighter aircraft ended around the time of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. RAF Jaguar strike aircraft were retro fitted with sidewinder anti aircraft missiles, USN F14 interceptors were fitted with pods on the belly to carry "dumb" bombs, as there was an absolute absence of aircraft for them to shoot down. The move is towards a wide variety of weapons being carried on the same aircraft, depending on its role for the day.
    Keep in mind the F35B is intended to replace the USMC F/A18.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  13. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    To have all crews trained (and current) in all roles (and all aircraft capable of all roles) will be new.
    no it won't, the Typhoon force is all multi-role, the old Phantom force, both RAF and FAA, was multi-role, the FAA FA2 Harrier and JF Harrier GR9's were all multi-role.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Generally there are differences in aircraft (eg Tornado and Typhoon), where different versions, tranches and squadrons specialise.
    amazingly, if you have an aircraft that is a fighter/intercepter (like Tornado F3) which has pretty limited off-role capabilities, and that has other aircraft (Tornado GR4) that do the off-role jobs far better, then there won't be much multi-rolling going on. however when you have a multi-role aircraft that doesn't have other aircraft to do other jobs (F-35), then it will do all the jobs as and when they come along. F-35 sqns won't specialise in strike or AD because bere is no way of knowing what kind of jobs will crop up, they will just do both.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Who knows
    states and military capability don't just appear out of thin air. there is one country on earth that could handle a CVF with 40 F-35 and its escorts, and two or three countries that could not handle them, but who's nuclear capabilities mean that a conventional conflict with them would be fraught with dangers. the rest?

  14. #187
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    Do a bit of research on the various on the various tranches and blocks of Typhoon and come back.

    The initial RAF Typhoons had zero air to ground capability (it was done urgently for Afghanistan after around 5 years in service) they were then upgraded to have some and then upgraded to full multi role.

    In the 14 years or so since delivery the RAF has operated 14 different tranches and blocks of Typhoon

  15. #188
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    Yes. But single type doing many roles instead of a single role aircraft which was once the norm. Take a look at the R.A.F or FAA of 20 years ago to see what I mean. Many aircraft replaced by a single type. The usn is slowly moving in the same direction. Where once you had F14 , A6, EA6, F18, P3 you now find just F18 or EF18.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  17. #189
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    More potential problems with "world class" carrier;

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...carrier-broke-

  18. #190
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    Well if its in the Scottish Sun it must be all DOOM and GLOOM!! lol!

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  20. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    While I can understand so degree of crew issues, they are working up the largest warship the RN has ever had, did they think it was going to be quick or easy?

  21. #193
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    This is also up, not sure if it is a reply to the other post or visa versa. Trials are rumoured to be starting soon.

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/roya...th-comes-life/

  22. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    While I can understand so degree of crew issues, they are working up the largest warship the RN has ever had, did they think it was going to be quick or easy?
    Having seen how lax their military training has become, on the recent TV documentaries, this isn't one bit surprising. Their mates are out every weekend on the beer from their jobs at McD and Nandos, with twice the money these crew are on. The Older age profile the RN are also recruiting mean people are less likely to tolerate poor work conditions for long.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  24. #195
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    Last edited by danno; 13th June 2017 at 22:39.

  25. #196
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    This just gets better and better.
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...en-deprivation

    About a quarter of the F-35 fighter jets made by Lockheed Martin have stopped flying until further notice because of irregularities in pilots’ oxygen supplies, the US air force has announced.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  26. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    What's more interesting is this seems to be a systemic issue within the US aircraft, the F 22 has Oxygen issues, the USN T-45 has them (to the point that the pilot instructors basically went on strike to get the Command to accept there was an issue), reportedly the Hornet/Superhornet/Growler airframes have them as well?

  27. #198
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    So much for the "world beating" platform the RAF rant about;

    http://theconversation.com/what-went...-fighter-60905

  28. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    So much for the "world beating" platform the RAF rant about;

    http://theconversation.com/what-went...-fighter-60905
    The bloke is a moron.

    Pretty much every 'fact' he produces is wrong, and he manages to avoid spelling out how, given the timescale and cost of developing a replacement aircraft, such a course of action would be cheaper and more effective than just ploughing on with F-35.

    Carlo Klopp, Sharkey Ward - the world is full of ****nugget. This bloke joins their ranks....

  29. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    The bloke is a moron.

    Pretty much every 'fact' he produces is wrong, and he manages to avoid spelling out how, given the timescale and cost of developing a replacement aircraft, such a course of action would be cheaper and more effective than just ploughing on with F-35.

    Carlo Klopp, Sharkey Ward - the world is full of ****nugget. This bloke joins their ranks....
    Pretty much this, the UK has no other choice at this stage, there's no other 5th gen fighter in town and there won't be, not unless the QE's are going to be turned into floating hotels for the majority of their lifespan. You can argue the decisions that got the UK to this point, but now there's no other choice.

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