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Thread: Stinger

  1. #1
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    Stinger

    Anyone any ideas why the Irish Defence Forces do not have the Stinger ?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
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    jang-a-lang turbocalves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    Anyone any ideas why the Irish Defence Forces do not have the Stinger ?

    As in the MANPADS? possibly because we have the RBS 70....

    Could be a doctrinal thing whereby we didnt envisage needing AD at the level of individual infantry man (though I'm not sure how such weapons are utilised, I doubt they would be given out to section members in the way the SRAAW or similar weapons are- unless they were an AD section of a weapons platoon, or some such- but i am guessing here)
    But there's no danger
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    If you're out of luck you're out of work
    We could send you to johannesburg.

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  3. #3
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    One suspects that it may be political tbh.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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    Intelligence Officer The Blue Max's Avatar
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    who says it not there You'd be surprised what can be pulled out of the bag when needed!
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    Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

    [As the British flag comes down]

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    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    They were delivered to Ireland, but not to the correct address........

  6. #6
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    The simple answer is that the RBS-70 is a better system, can be linked into a radar system like Giraffe, making it a better system for point defence of a static location. .

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    But the stinger is portable... It's not designed to be a static platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    The simple answer is that the RBS-70 is a better system, can be linked into a radar system like Giraffe, making it a better system for point defence of a static location. .
    Very good if you want to be a target...
    It strikes me that the Stinger is the better choice for here, and for overseas deployments,as the RBS-70 is limited by it's size and weight, but that is only my opinion.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  10. #9
    BQMS
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    In relation to the Stinger is the consenus that there is no such threat to ISAF aircraft from this source or one of its cousins? I saw the tail end of something on CNN (I think) debating that a COIN aircraft would be perfectly adequate in ISAF.

    They had an example that looked no different to a Pilatus to my untrained eye but seemed to have all the modern bells and whistles regarding comms, sensors, weapons payload etc.

    The panel were advocating the operating cost and the endurance. Maybe I missed it earlier in the segment but I must admit my immediate reaction was it's survivability or counter measures to a Stinger or some lucky direct fire?

  11. #10
    Captain Jetjock's Avatar
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    What you saw was probably the Super Tucano or AT6 Texan.

    Paul, I wouldn't read too much into the Giraffe/RBS combo. It doesn't provide any fire control, merely advises the operator which way he needs to be looking for an incoming target. You could just as easily substitute Stinger/Mistral for the RBS launcher.

    The RBS 70 is not a true MANPADS system, being larger and more cumbersome. It is not capable of launching off the shoulder. It is however, much more capable in terms of range. 8km versus 5km for Stinger/Igla/Mistral.

    It's principle weakness is it's guidance type, laser beam riding SACLOS, requiring the operator to maintain the target in the cross hairs after launch.

    Other manpads systems are fire and forget.

    I always thought the Avenger system, with the Stinger missile looked like a capable system and within reach financially.

  12. #11
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    Thanks Jetjock. I think it was the Super Tucano. Googled it and there is a huge thread about it on ARRSE, plenty of opinion pro and con.

    BTW when I searched for "Super Tucano ISAF" I found this article about SAM/MANPADs which didn't come up in my orginal search. It's all 'suspected' and 'unconfirmed'.

    http://geneva-globaldefence.blogspot...-launches.html

  13. #12
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    For those of us who remember 1987, there was an article in magill magazine in June/July of that year, which addressed this issue in particular (a senator had claimed that we'd bought the RBS-70 despite the fact that it didn't work too well in the Rain because of the SCALOS system). The journalist got in touch with an expert from Janes who argued that the RBS-70 was the better choice for Ireland.

    As for air defence correct me if I'm worng, but haven't the US got rid of their air defence units at brigade and Division level, leaving only patriots at corps level?
    Last edited by paul g; 11th January 2011 at 16:33.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    The simple answer is that the RBS-70 is a better system, can be linked into a radar system like Giraffe, making it a better system for point defence of a static location. .
    As jetjock says the Giraffe merely provides information on direction, altitute and maybe speed of target (plus the fact that there is a target there in the first place).

    Quote Originally Posted by Napp View Post
    But the stinger is portable... It's not designed to be a static platform.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    Very good if you want to be a target...
    It strikes me that the Stinger is the better choice for here, and for overseas deployments,as the RBS-70 is limited by it's size and weight, but that is only my opinion.
    You can use radio/landline to be remote from the radar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    The RBS 70 is not a true MANPADS system, being larger and more cumbersome. It is not capable of launching off the shoulder. It is however, much more capable in terms of range. 8km versus 5km for Stinger/Igla/Mistral.

    It's principle weakness is it's guidance type, laser beam riding SACLOS, requiring the operator to maintain the target in the cross hairs after launch.

    Other manpads systems are fire and forget.

    I always thought the Avenger system, with the Stinger missile looked like a capable system and within reach financially.

    There are pros and cons to all SAMs:

    - Laser-guided RBS can't be jammed (it is only in the last few years that aircraft have started to be fitted with laser warners).

    - RBS firer has to be able to see the target, this depends on ground/weather/darkness (the COND helps combat this)

    - The RBS can be used to take out ground targets too

    - The firer must keep the missile on target (what if wounded, distracted?). The RBS isn't fire and forget (but all fire and forget weapons can be jammed).

    - You can't fire 1 missile and fire another straight away

    The RBS-70 entered service with the DF in 1980 (at that time we would be taking about the basic Stinger (FIM-92A), the RBS-70 was a more mature weapon (and is still excellent).

    The RBS-70 is manportable within a team of 3/4+, it can easily be put in a Nissan/trailer.

    It is mainly designed for point defence that would usually mean you are going to be sitting in an area for a while but yet it has a quick tear-down time.

    Remember the RBS-70 was probably purchased with more of a view towards ATCP.

  16. #14
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    Hi there,
    The thing about turboprop COIN aircraft is that they have a pair of exhausts, which are unshielded, (such as those on the Apache), which trails a lovely big exhaust plume behind them, which is a magnet for an IR SAM and they are comparatively slow. So even an old, basic SA-7 could be a threat. Apart from that, the exhausts are very close to the cockpit, so that a SAM hit on or near the exhausts also wrecks the cockpit, whereas a jet aircraft has it's exhaust at the tail end, which at least allows the pilot to eject or in some cases, fly home with repairable damage.
    Perhaps it's time to start rebuilding A-37s?
    regards
    GttC

  17. #15
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Gunner concussion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    - Laser-guided RBS can't be jammed (it is only in the last few years that aircraft have started to be fitted with laser warners).
    A point to note is that laser guidance is delivered from the launcher to the tail of the missile, rather than the more common method of illuminating the target and and having the missile track the reflected radiation. It may be that little or no radiation will hit the target. Of course, this benefit is becoming more redundant with the advances in thermal launch detectors which can be integrated into an aircraft's defensive systems.

    Additional advantages that RBS 70 has over Stinger are its proximity fuse and shaped charge, pre-fragmented warhead. Raytheon stated in 2008 that a new fuse was to be developed for Stinger but I don't know if it's in service yet. We also have the option of using the new Bolide missile in our launchers which give even better AD performance and are designed for anti-armour use also (presumably not too effective against MBT's though).

    I don't see any reason why we shouldn't have an IR MANPAD system to complement the RBS but off the top of my head NZ, Australia and the BA don't have any organic, infantry level AD systems. I'd much prefer a medium range missile system myself TBH!
    "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Your correct on the laser concussion but whats the idea behind the laser warners then? Does the proxmity fuze use a laser?

    Why have a Stinger MANPAD and an RBS-70 semi-MANPAD? Why not something like BAMSE supported by RBS-70 (equipped with Mk2 or BOLIDE)?

  21. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    One suspects that it may be political tbh.

    Hi

    What would the political objections to the missiles be, and from who.?

  22. #19
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    Hi Dev,

    The RBS 70 has a laser proximity fuse. This is a different laser to the guidance laser. It is basically an on board laser that emits at 90 degrees to the flight path. If the beam is broken by a target aircraft and reflected to an on board sensor, it causes the missile's warhead to detonate.

    Laser warners merely alert an aircraft that it is being "painted" by a laser. In the case of the RBS 70 they cannot be used to jam the guidance laser, as the RBS 70 being a beam rider, follows the beam from the launcher, rather than the reflected beam from the target. They will however prompt a pilot to begin an evasive maneuver.

    (Laser warning receivers on tanks are a whole different kettle of fish. In many cases they can be used to slew the gun on the source of the target.)

    Why have Stinger and RBS?

    Well, the RBS-70 is definitely the more capable in terms of point defence. It suits home air defence needs here quite well, in terms of summits etc. It would also suit base defence overseas.

    Stinger, or similar would be quite suited to patrolling. Compact and easily transportable, it has a much quicker set up time to engage a threat, for example a mobile patrol coming under air attack.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Hi

    What would the political objections to the missiles be, and from who.?
    Crusties, Greens, Sinn Fein etc etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    Hi Dev,

    The RBS 70 has a laser proximity fuse. This is a different laser to the guidance laser. It is basically an on board laser that emits at 90 degrees to the flight path. If the beam is broken by a target aircraft and reflected to an on board sensor, it causes the missile's warhead to detonate.

    Laser warners merely alert an aircraft that it is being "painted" by a laser. In the case of the RBS 70 they cannot be used to jam the guidance laser, as the RBS 70 being a beam rider, follows the beam from the launcher, rather than the reflected beam from the target. They will however prompt a pilot to begin an evasive maneuver.
    Taught so, is their a laser guided SAM that is laser guided? Reason I ask is what would be the point is laser warner (I presume the laser on the proximity fuse would give a couple of seconds warning at best.

  25. #21
    Gunner concussion's Avatar
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    BAMSE would be an ideal system for us IMO. Brand new, good range, quick set up and tear down time compatible with our current Giraffe radars. I haven't found any prices yet as there has only been one (I think) purchase outside Sweden but it's damned expensive. Could set us up for the next 20 years though.
    "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

  26. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    For those of us who remember 1987, there was an article in magill magazine in June/July of that year, which addressed this issue in particular (a senator had claimed that we'd bought the RBS-70 despite the fact that it didn't work too well in the Rain because of the SCALOS system).
    If memory serves me correctly it was a TD, Proinsias De Rossa. Who probably thought that he could get a better offer from his North Korean pals on sam-7 copies.

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    It's basically instantaneous Dev. It activates if the missile does not score a direct hit and passes by the target. The target reflects laser light from the proximity sensor and the warhead goes boom. It takes as long as it takes light to travel a few meters.

    The laser warning receiver would however let you know there is a guy on the ground directing a missile towards you and maybe give you a few seconds to get behind terrain and break his line of sight on you.

    SAM technology is massively expensive you go up towards the medium range equipment. Prohibitively expensive in fact. Even the Russian stuff. Tor M1 for example goes for around $30m per launch unit! It could never be justified over other more pressing needs.

    What threats are there to justify a longer range weapon? None really. Look at the Brits, Rapier is still their primary weapon. It could be argued that the Rbs system is superior in range and altitude, particularly the later RBS marks.

    A shoulder launched SAM could be purchased inexpensively. 100 Stingers +/- €4m. It would have a definite role overseas, given the lack of definitive air superiority on recent missions.
    Last edited by Jetjock; 12th January 2011 at 00:52.

  28. #24
    jang-a-lang turbocalves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    A shoulder launched SAM could be purchased inexpensively. 100 Stingers +/- €4m. It would have a definite role overseas, given the lack of definitive air superiority on recent missions.
    Has there been a definitive Aerial threat on any of our recent missions?
    But there's no danger
    It's a professional career
    Though it could be arranged
    With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
    If you're out of luck you're out of work
    We could send you to johannesburg.

    (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

  29. #25
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    Hi Turbo,
    I'd rather any Irish UN mission went overseas with the easily loaded and carried stuff to hand, just in case, rather than wait for an air attack and try and get it shipped out, in a hurry, afterwards. There's no shortage of cheap yet deadly Russian/Chinese/Eastern European aircraft and crews to fly, fix and arm them in Africa. Even if all they did was to leave one or two Mowags behind and bring a Bofors instead, it would make a difference. Imagine if the lowlifes in Chad had had access to a Mig or two? It's be a far different story for the Irish then.
    regards
    GttC

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