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  • Stinger

    Anyone any ideas why the Irish Defence Forces do not have the Stinger ?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  • #2
    Originally posted by Turkey View Post
    Anyone any ideas why the Irish Defence Forces do not have the Stinger ?

    As in the MANPADS? possibly because we have the RBS 70....

    Could be a doctrinal thing whereby we didnt envisage needing AD at the level of individual infantry man (though I'm not sure how such weapons are utilised, I doubt they would be given out to section members in the way the SRAAW or similar weapons are- unless they were an AD section of a weapons platoon, or some such- but i am guessing here)
    But there's no danger
    It's a professional career
    Though it could be arranged
    With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
    If you're out of luck you're out of work
    We could send you to johannesburg.

    (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

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    • #3
      One suspects that it may be political tbh.
      "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
      Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
      Illegitimi non carborundum

      Comment


      • #4
        who says it not there You'd be surprised what can be pulled out of the bag when needed!
        British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
        Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

        [As the British flag comes down]

        Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

        Comment


        • #5
          They were delivered to Ireland, but not to the correct address........


          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

          Comment


          • #6
            The simple answer is that the RBS-70 is a better system, can be linked into a radar system like Giraffe, making it a better system for point defence of a static location. .

            Comment


            • #7
              But the stinger is portable... It's not designed to be a static platform.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by paul g View Post
                The simple answer is that the RBS-70 is a better system, can be linked into a radar system like Giraffe, making it a better system for point defence of a static location. .
                Very good if you want to be a target...
                It strikes me that the Stinger is the better choice for here, and for overseas deployments,as the RBS-70 is limited by it's size and weight, but that is only my opinion.
                "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                Illegitimi non carborundum

                Comment


                • #9
                  In relation to the Stinger is the consenus that there is no such threat to ISAF aircraft from this source or one of its cousins? I saw the tail end of something on CNN (I think) debating that a COIN aircraft would be perfectly adequate in ISAF.

                  They had an example that looked no different to a Pilatus to my untrained eye but seemed to have all the modern bells and whistles regarding comms, sensors, weapons payload etc.

                  The panel were advocating the operating cost and the endurance. Maybe I missed it earlier in the segment but I must admit my immediate reaction was it's survivability or counter measures to a Stinger or some lucky direct fire?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What you saw was probably the Super Tucano or AT6 Texan.

                    Paul, I wouldn't read too much into the Giraffe/RBS combo. It doesn't provide any fire control, merely advises the operator which way he needs to be looking for an incoming target. You could just as easily substitute Stinger/Mistral for the RBS launcher.

                    The RBS 70 is not a true MANPADS system, being larger and more cumbersome. It is not capable of launching off the shoulder. It is however, much more capable in terms of range. 8km versus 5km for Stinger/Igla/Mistral.

                    It's principle weakness is it's guidance type, laser beam riding SACLOS, requiring the operator to maintain the target in the cross hairs after launch.

                    Other manpads systems are fire and forget.

                    I always thought the Avenger system, with the Stinger missile looked like a capable system and within reach financially.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Jetjock. I think it was the Super Tucano. Googled it and there is a huge thread about it on ARRSE, plenty of opinion pro and con.

                      BTW when I searched for "Super Tucano ISAF" I found this article about SAM/MANPADs which didn't come up in my orginal search. It's all 'suspected' and 'unconfirmed'.

                      http://geneva-globaldefence.blogspot...-launches.html

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        For those of us who remember 1987, there was an article in magill magazine in June/July of that year, which addressed this issue in particular (a senator had claimed that we'd bought the RBS-70 despite the fact that it didn't work too well in the Rain because of the SCALOS system). The journalist got in touch with an expert from Janes who argued that the RBS-70 was the better choice for Ireland.

                        As for air defence correct me if I'm worng, but haven't the US got rid of their air defence units at brigade and Division level, leaving only patriots at corps level?
                        Last edited by paul g; 11 January 2011, 16:33.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by paul g View Post
                          The simple answer is that the RBS-70 is a better system, can be linked into a radar system like Giraffe, making it a better system for point defence of a static location. .
                          As jetjock says the Giraffe merely provides information on direction, altitute and maybe speed of target (plus the fact that there is a target there in the first place).

                          Originally posted by Napp View Post
                          But the stinger is portable... It's not designed to be a static platform.
                          Originally posted by Turkey View Post
                          Very good if you want to be a target...
                          It strikes me that the Stinger is the better choice for here, and for overseas deployments,as the RBS-70 is limited by it's size and weight, but that is only my opinion.
                          You can use radio/landline to be remote from the radar.


                          Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                          The RBS 70 is not a true MANPADS system, being larger and more cumbersome. It is not capable of launching off the shoulder. It is however, much more capable in terms of range. 8km versus 5km for Stinger/Igla/Mistral.

                          It's principle weakness is it's guidance type, laser beam riding SACLOS, requiring the operator to maintain the target in the cross hairs after launch.

                          Other manpads systems are fire and forget.

                          I always thought the Avenger system, with the Stinger missile looked like a capable system and within reach financially.

                          There are pros and cons to all SAMs:

                          - Laser-guided RBS can't be jammed (it is only in the last few years that aircraft have started to be fitted with laser warners).

                          - RBS firer has to be able to see the target, this depends on ground/weather/darkness (the COND helps combat this)

                          - The RBS can be used to take out ground targets too

                          - The firer must keep the missile on target (what if wounded, distracted?). The RBS isn't fire and forget (but all fire and forget weapons can be jammed).

                          - You can't fire 1 missile and fire another straight away

                          The RBS-70 entered service with the DF in 1980 (at that time we would be taking about the basic Stinger (FIM-92A), the RBS-70 was a more mature weapon (and is still excellent).

                          The RBS-70 is manportable within a team of 3/4+, it can easily be put in a Nissan/trailer.

                          It is mainly designed for point defence that would usually mean you are going to be sitting in an area for a while but yet it has a quick tear-down time.

                          Remember the RBS-70 was probably purchased with more of a view towards ATCP.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi there,
                            The thing about turboprop COIN aircraft is that they have a pair of exhausts, which are unshielded, (such as those on the Apache), which trails a lovely big exhaust plume behind them, which is a magnet for an IR SAM and they are comparatively slow. So even an old, basic SA-7 could be a threat. Apart from that, the exhausts are very close to the cockpit, so that a SAM hit on or near the exhausts also wrecks the cockpit, whereas a jet aircraft has it's exhaust at the tail end, which at least allows the pilot to eject or in some cases, fly home with repairable damage.
                            Perhaps it's time to start rebuilding A-37s?
                            regards
                            GttC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Uncle Ivan in Afghanistan with a little tube of freedom.

                              Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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