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  • #16
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    - Laser-guided RBS can't be jammed (it is only in the last few years that aircraft have started to be fitted with laser warners).
    A point to note is that laser guidance is delivered from the launcher to the tail of the missile, rather than the more common method of illuminating the target and and having the missile track the reflected radiation. It may be that little or no radiation will hit the target. Of course, this benefit is becoming more redundant with the advances in thermal launch detectors which can be integrated into an aircraft's defensive systems.

    Additional advantages that RBS 70 has over Stinger are its proximity fuse and shaped charge, pre-fragmented warhead. Raytheon stated in 2008 that a new fuse was to be developed for Stinger but I don't know if it's in service yet. We also have the option of using the new Bolide missile in our launchers which give even better AD performance and are designed for anti-armour use also (presumably not too effective against MBT's though).

    I don't see any reason why we shouldn't have an IR MANPAD system to complement the RBS but off the top of my head NZ, Australia and the BA don't have any organic, infantry level AD systems. I'd much prefer a medium range missile system myself TBH!
    "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

    Comment


    • #17
      Your correct on the laser concussion but whats the idea behind the laser warners then? Does the proxmity fuze use a laser?

      Why have a Stinger MANPAD and an RBS-70 semi-MANPAD? Why not something like BAMSE supported by RBS-70 (equipped with Mk2 or BOLIDE)?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Turkey View Post
        One suspects that it may be political tbh.

        Hi

        What would the political objections to the missiles be, and from who.?

        Comment


        • #19
          Hi Dev,

          The RBS 70 has a laser proximity fuse. This is a different laser to the guidance laser. It is basically an on board laser that emits at 90 degrees to the flight path. If the beam is broken by a target aircraft and reflected to an on board sensor, it causes the missile's warhead to detonate.

          Laser warners merely alert an aircraft that it is being "painted" by a laser. In the case of the RBS 70 they cannot be used to jam the guidance laser, as the RBS 70 being a beam rider, follows the beam from the launcher, rather than the reflected beam from the target. They will however prompt a pilot to begin an evasive maneuver.

          (Laser warning receivers on tanks are a whole different kettle of fish. In many cases they can be used to slew the gun on the source of the target.)

          Why have Stinger and RBS?

          Well, the RBS-70 is definitely the more capable in terms of point defence. It suits home air defence needs here quite well, in terms of summits etc. It would also suit base defence overseas.

          Stinger, or similar would be quite suited to patrolling. Compact and easily transportable, it has a much quicker set up time to engage a threat, for example a mobile patrol coming under air attack.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by sofa View Post
            Hi

            What would the political objections to the missiles be, and from who.?
            Crusties, Greens, Sinn Fein etc etc

            Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
            Hi Dev,

            The RBS 70 has a laser proximity fuse. This is a different laser to the guidance laser. It is basically an on board laser that emits at 90 degrees to the flight path. If the beam is broken by a target aircraft and reflected to an on board sensor, it causes the missile's warhead to detonate.

            Laser warners merely alert an aircraft that it is being "painted" by a laser. In the case of the RBS 70 they cannot be used to jam the guidance laser, as the RBS 70 being a beam rider, follows the beam from the launcher, rather than the reflected beam from the target. They will however prompt a pilot to begin an evasive maneuver.
            Taught so, is their a laser guided SAM that is laser guided? Reason I ask is what would be the point is laser warner (I presume the laser on the proximity fuse would give a couple of seconds warning at best.

            Comment


            • #21
              BAMSE would be an ideal system for us IMO. Brand new, good range, quick set up and tear down time compatible with our current Giraffe radars. I haven't found any prices yet as there has only been one (I think) purchase outside Sweden but it's damned expensive. Could set us up for the next 20 years though.
              "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by paul g View Post
                For those of us who remember 1987, there was an article in magill magazine in June/July of that year, which addressed this issue in particular (a senator had claimed that we'd bought the RBS-70 despite the fact that it didn't work too well in the Rain because of the SCALOS system).
                If memory serves me correctly it was a TD, Proinsias De Rossa. Who probably thought that he could get a better offer from his North Korean pals on sam-7 copies.

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                • #23
                  It's basically instantaneous Dev. It activates if the missile does not score a direct hit and passes by the target. The target reflects laser light from the proximity sensor and the warhead goes boom. It takes as long as it takes light to travel a few meters.

                  The laser warning receiver would however let you know there is a guy on the ground directing a missile towards you and maybe give you a few seconds to get behind terrain and break his line of sight on you.

                  SAM technology is massively expensive you go up towards the medium range equipment. Prohibitively expensive in fact. Even the Russian stuff. Tor M1 for example goes for around $30m per launch unit! It could never be justified over other more pressing needs.

                  What threats are there to justify a longer range weapon? None really. Look at the Brits, Rapier is still their primary weapon. It could be argued that the Rbs system is superior in range and altitude, particularly the later RBS marks.

                  A shoulder launched SAM could be purchased inexpensively. 100 Stingers +/- €4m. It would have a definite role overseas, given the lack of definitive air superiority on recent missions.
                  Last edited by Jetjock; 12 January 2011, 00:52.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                    A shoulder launched SAM could be purchased inexpensively. 100 Stingers +/- €4m. It would have a definite role overseas, given the lack of definitive air superiority on recent missions.
                    Has there been a definitive Aerial threat on any of our recent missions?
                    But there's no danger
                    It's a professional career
                    Though it could be arranged
                    With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
                    If you're out of luck you're out of work
                    We could send you to johannesburg.

                    (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hi Turbo,
                      I'd rather any Irish UN mission went overseas with the easily loaded and carried stuff to hand, just in case, rather than wait for an air attack and try and get it shipped out, in a hurry, afterwards. There's no shortage of cheap yet deadly Russian/Chinese/Eastern European aircraft and crews to fly, fix and arm them in Africa. Even if all they did was to leave one or two Mowags behind and bring a Bofors instead, it would make a difference. Imagine if the lowlifes in Chad had had access to a Mig or two? It's be a far different story for the Irish then.
                      regards
                      GttC

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                        Hi Turbo,
                        I'd rather any Irish UN mission went overseas with the easily loaded and carried stuff to hand, just in case, rather than wait for an air attack and try and get it shipped out, in a hurry, afterwards. There's no shortage of cheap yet deadly Russian/Chinese/Eastern European aircraft and crews to fly, fix and arm them in Africa. Even if all they did was to leave one or two Mowags behind and bring a Bofors instead, it would make a difference. Imagine if the lowlifes in Chad had had access to a Mig or two? It's be a far different story for the Irish then.
                        regards
                        GttC
                        I agree, troops goin overseas should be tooled up the ying! Even if that means bringing Bofors/RBS's/Stingers/Bren Guns......
                        But there has been very little use/need for AD assets on Irish peacekeeping missions. Thus AD stuff seems to be left at home. And seeing as were goin the Leb again I doubt there will be a need for AD esp seeing as its the yids who have the airpower out that neck of the woods

                        The last time i recall there being an air threat (i may be wrong on this) on an overseas mission was in the congo, this set a precedent early on yet nothing was done about it. And I cant see it changing
                        But there's no danger
                        It's a professional career
                        Though it could be arranged
                        With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
                        If you're out of luck you're out of work
                        We could send you to johannesburg.

                        (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'd imagine if the UN had brought a few L60s with the Irish contingent, Mr Zumbach in his Fouga might have had other ideas.
                          regards
                          GttC

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Turbo,

                            While there wasn't a definitive threat on recent missions, neither was there definitive air cover.

                            Given the proximity of Sudan to the Irish AO in Chad, and it being the place from where rebel advances were supported and launched it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that there could have been Sudanese Mig-29's or Hinds popping up over the border.

                            One thing sure to make a Hind pilot think twice about harassing a patrol would be the threat of being countered with a Stinger.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi there,
                              I'm presuming the presence of old French Mirages (flown by people who would shoot in a heartbeat) was regarded as sufficient, in the event of a Sudanese MiG popping up.
                              regards
                              GttC

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by paul g View Post
                                As for air defence correct me if I'm worng, but haven't the US got rid of their air defence units at brigade and Division level, leaving only patriots at corps level?
                                We do have the advantage of a fairly competent air force to deal with any overhead issues. SLAMRAAM was only cancelled yesterday, and as far as I know, there are still plenty of Avengers mucking around.

                                NTM
                                Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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