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  1. #1
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    9 Liners and IFAK

    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    I agree with S&S.We dont get issued proper IFAKs.We make our own.If you were to ask an ordinary soldier here what goes into an individual trauma kit or what a nine liner is they wouldnt have a clue.And dont even get me started on our total lack of training on using Morphine!They made a big deal of including CAT's and Israeli FFD's in the soldiers kit on the Late Late show a few years back.THEY ARENT ISSUED OUT! Medics have them.
    Thought I'd give this it's own thread...

    Does the DF teach troops to use the NATO 9 liner as used by ISAF? Or do they have to use the format as seen in the DF TAMs?

    Also, on subject of IFAK, what's the general consensus on what should be carried? On the top of my head I have a CAT on the outside of my chest rig, available to hand, and keep a small IFAK in it's own pouch on the chest rig (which the CAT is strapped to). It has an FFD, small bandage, burns bandage, rubber gloves, cheap "tuffcut" scissors, CCCD, My BA issued Battlefield 1st Aid Aide Memoir, Arret, Diorlyte and Nurofen plus for the squits and boo-boos respectively.

    Would infantry in the DF be expected to carry IV bags, and maybe starter kits either for the medic or be trained to use themselves? If so, do they exercise with that sort of kit packed?

    My own IFAK is made up of existing stuff I already had in standard 1st Aid Kits around the house, some of it is technically out of date but I keep it for training purposes, and I got the CAT thrown in for free into a deal I made recently whilst buying some gear for my company. Needless to say, non of it is issued, (other than the other FFD in my smock); nor have I had any training in the DF to treat or evac a casualty. Apparently, when we attack a position, we never sustain casualties ourselves
    Last edited by SwiftandSure; 3rd May 2011 at 12:28.

  2. #2
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    What first aid training does the irish army undergo prior to deployment overseas ?
    Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier - Samuel Johnson

  3. #3
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Does the DF teach troops to use the NATO 9 liner as used by ISAF? Or do they have to use the format as seen in the DF TAMs?
    We use the format in the TAMS,but its seldom practiced at unit level.It should be.IMHO the nine liner is the way to go what with interoperability and all that.The Yanks have been using the 9 Liner for years even before afghanistan AFAIK so its not a new concept.

    Also, on subject of IFAK, what's the general consensus on what should be carried? On the top of my head I have a CAT on the outside of my chest rig, available to hand, and keep a small IFAK in it's own pouch on the chest rig (which the CAT is strapped to). It has an FFD, small bandage, burns bandage, rubber gloves, cheap "tuffcut" scissors, CCCD, My BA issued Battlefield 1st Aid Aide Memoir, Arret, Diorlyte and Nurofen plus for the squits and boo-boos respectively.
    To the best of my knowledge an IFAK and a personal trauma kit are two different beasts.An IFAK is where you keep your headache/squits/sore belly tablets etc etc.
    A trauma kit would be 2x CATs, 2x FFD(israeli type if possible),quick clot,curlex,possibly a "J" tube(sized for yourself) and 2x Morphine autoinjectors.None of the items i just listed are issued to anybody in the infantry in the DF.Even overseas.


    Would infantry in the DF be expected to carry IV bags, and maybe starter kits either for the medic or be trained to use themselves? If so, do they exercise with that sort of kit packed?
    No.But we should do both.Again.A disgrace.

    My own IFAK is made up of existing stuff I already had in standard 1st Aid Kits around the house, some of it is technically out of date but I keep it for training purposes, and I got the CAT thrown in for free into a deal I made recently whilst buying some gear for my company. Needless to say, non of it is issued, (other than the other FFD in my smock); nor have I had any training in the DF to treat or evac a casualty. Apparently, when we attack a position, we never sustain casualties ourselves
    If you go on any course in the NCOTW you will have a pain in your hole dealing with casualties.They are factored into every exercise.CASEVAC is a big thing with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by knocker View Post
    What first aid training does the irish army undergo prior to deployment overseas ?
    Basic occupational first aid refresher training.None of the training we should get.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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    Wow Apod! I'm actually surprised by your answer.

    I always had it in my mind that the PDF, while not being able to operate to it's potential due to lack of missions, were if anything, better trained than most other Western standing armies, as they have more time to train and specialise. While I still consider that to be the case with the PDF in most areas of soldiering, I'm shocked to read that there's a huge skill gap in this area of training.

    It sounds like the DF needs to pull it's thumb out soon. I thought it was bad enough that the RDF barely touch first aid and CASEVAC drills, but to hear the PDF is slow to adopt the SOPs of other operational armies when it comes to medical training and equipment sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. We should be learning from their mistakes, not wait for our own mistakes to happen.

    Even as a basic Signaller in the BA, not necessarily meant to be anywhere near a forward area, we'd rehearse CASEVAC drills and emergency 1st Aid in and out of En contact. Whether it be gunshot wounds, mine strikes or RTAs. Up until now I thought that was standard practice everywhere and that the RDF were just behind.

    I'm not slagging here, and this isn't a "Jaysus, you don't that, but the BA do" post; I'm genuinely surprised there's not more done in this area. I haven't done a first aid course for about 2 years now, and haven't touched combat 1st Aid since I left the BA. I consider my skill set to be rather low and would love to do a refresher course, learning new TTP of basic first response to trauma casualties and do exercises of same, particularly considering today's IED threat environment.

    I did wonder about the 9 liner against the TAMs CASEVAC format, as it made sense to me to teach the 9 liner for interoperability purposes, as you mentioned yourself. In fact, now I think of it, I'm gonna laminate a small 9 liner on one side and the TAMs CASEVAC insert on the other side and stick that in with my IFAK.

    Is there not a yearly TOET for 1st Aid outside of the Medical Corps?

  5. #5
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The morphine issue could well be down to Irish legislation (or more probably way of doing things), it is only in the last couple of years that Paramedics could administer anything apart from Oxygen and possibly Aspirin.

    Remember this is a country that sent people to get qualificiations or they payed for it at their own expense and then they won't let them put it into practice, and I'm not just talking about the DF.

  6. #6
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    All PDF recruits receive a weeks medical training during recruit training and another week of it during 2-3* training.
    This covers basic 1st aid and battle field 1st aid levels 1 and 2.
    Some recruit platoons may also do the occupational 1st aid course but this is not standard.

    Every exercise ive been on from my recruit training onwards has had simulated casualties.
    On an exercise one person in every section will/should have a medical bag and another with a stretcher.

  7. #7
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
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    The 9 liner is an American version of the METHANE report.

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    The medical training handed out to PDF troops in Recruit Training and at Unit level is absolutely laughable.

    They don't even issue tourniquets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    The medical training handed out to PDF troops in Recruit Training and at Unit level is absolutely laughable.
    It covers most things you need to know like types of wounds, control of bleeding, hemorrhage control, scene survey, types of care, chain of extraction, burns, chemical burns to the eyes, electrical burns, poisons, fractures, casevac, casevaereq, cpr, improvise stretchers etc etc.

    They don't even issue tourniquets.
    Yes they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    It covers most things you need to know like types of wounds, control of bleeding, hemorrhage control, scene survey, types of care, chain of extraction, burns, chemical burns to the eyes, electrical burns, poisons, fractures, casevac, casevaereq, cpr, improvise stretchers etc etc.
    It's shite.

    Most of what they teach you doesn't tie into battlefield first aid at all. What they do teach you, is covered so rarely that it doesn't allow any kind of skill development or continuity.

    You take a Recce Platoon out of a generic Bn in the DF... Now, put them on the battlefield and start to introduce serious casualties. Without any actual medics there and just the Recce Platoon to treat and stabilise the wounded, watch the deaths pile up because of piss poor medical training.

    I don't know how anyone can try defend the medical training given to Units outside of the Med Coy's. It's not good enough, simple as.

    Yes they do.
    I've yet to see a single member of my Bn ever issued a tourniquet.

  12. #11
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Ah but if they haven't been trained in their use would there be any point?

    (not defending it by the way!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Ah but if they haven't been trained in their use would there be any point?

    (not defending it by the way!)
    Which is exactly why the medical training at Unit level is so shite.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    Most of what they teach you doesn't tie into battlefield first aid at all.
    Yes it does.

    To use my above examples:-
    Types of wounds - is it a contusion, laceration, incsision, puncture, gun shot wound etc.
    Control of bleeding & hemorrhage control - to stop the casualty from bleeding to death.
    Scene survey - safety, precautions, injury, no of casualties, need support etc.
    Types of care - care under fire, tactical care, handing over casualty, care during extraction etc.
    Chain of extraction - Pl Sgt, CS, casualty collection point, MAP.
    Burns, chemical burns to the eyes, electrical burns, poisons - treatment of them.
    Fractures - bones aren't bullet proof.
    CASEVAC - casualty evacuation.
    CASEVACREQ - calling in the helicopter, ambulance etc.
    CPR - resuscitating the casualty.
    Improvise stretchers - if others are being used or you have none.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Yes it does.

    To use my above examples:-
    Types of wounds - is it a contusion, laceration, incsision, puncture, gun shot wound etc.
    Completely basic stuff, even a civvie learns it. Not directly taught as Battlefield first aid.

    Control of bleeding & hemorrhage control - to stop the casualty from bleeding to death.
    When they start teaching and issuing tourniquets to Infantry troops, I'll consider the above to actually have been something I've been instructed on.

    Just saying "You'll throw a tourniquet on it" or "Put a dressing on it, if it keeps bleeding just throw abouther dressing on it" isn't good enough.

    Scene survey - safety, precautions, injury, no of casualties, need support etc.
    When troops are taught the above, it's purely meant in a civilian sense and you know it.

    Types of care - care under fire, tactical care, handing over casualty, care during extraction etc.
    Deadly, now what happens when your platoon occupies a building and you've to stabilise casualties that need fluids, have arterial bleeds or whatever else and there's no Medic handy?

    Types of care in the DF sense comes up a bit short.

    Chain of extraction - Pl Sgt, CS, casualty collection point, MAP.
    That's something you're taught anyway during Recruit Training.

    Burns, chemical burns to the eyes, electrical burns, poisons - treatment of them.
    Electrical burns? Poisons? Unless someone gets a crack of a taser while in contact or someone pisses in the water, that doesn't even remotely come under battlefield first aid. It isn't even taught by medics in a battlefield sense, it's taught in a purely civvie situation sense.

    Fractures - bones aren't bullet proof.
    That's great but again it's not taught in a battlefield sense nor does a fracture really come under battlefield first aid.

    CASEVAC - casualty evacuation.
    Again, CASEVAC drills are basic Infantry skills. They're not somethin taught by medics.

    CASEVACREQ - calling in the helicopter, ambulance etc.
    It's not exactly dealing with someone with an erterial bleed is it?

    CPR - resuscitating the casualty.
    Taught in a civilian sense, again.

    Improvise stretchers - if others are being used or you have none.
    Ok, I can make a stretcher out of two SRAAW's and two smocks.


    The above is just about what Infantry soldiers need to know according to the DF. Anyone with a right mind, knows it's nowhere good enough.

    Now, whether it's a case of maybe the DF needs to start running "Infantry Medic" Courses or some shite to plug the gap between the battlefield first aid carry on they teach us and what the Medics actually know, something needs to be done. Cause a Medic isn't always gonna be there and you need to be able to depend on your mates medical knowledge... The knowledge being shared with Line units at the minute, just isn't good enough

  16. #15
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
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    I believe there are moves afoot to bring the DF up to Emergency First responder (EFR) level. This will also have military modules like Tourniquets, NPAs, Haeostatic dressings and Tactical Combat Casualty Care.

  17. #16
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
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    And 9 liners too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    Completely basic stuff, even a civvie learns it. Not directly taught as Battlefield first aid.
    So your saying no one ever has contusion, laceration, incsision, puncture or gun shot wounds on a battlefield?

    When they start teaching and issuing tourniquets to Infantry troops, I'll consider the above to actually have been something I've been instructed on.

    Just saying "You'll throw a tourniquet on it" or "Put a dressing on it, if it keeps bleeding just throw abouther dressing on it" isn't good enough.
    You dont need a tourniquet to control bleeding the best way is to simply put pressure directly on the wound.

    When troops are taught the above, it's purely meant in a civilian sense and you know it.
    Its not.

    eg.
    Scene safety - is there more IEDs?
    Universal precautions - do I need gloves or a mask to deal with the casualty?
    Mechanism of injury - is he dead? wheres the shrapnel wounds? did he lose a limb?
    Number of casualties - how many in my section are injured? who can still fight
    Need support - is he one lucky ****er or do I need to call a CASEVACREQ?

    Deadly, now what happens when your platoon occupies a building and you've to stabilise casualties that need fluids, have arterial bleeds or whatever else and there's no Medic handy?

    Types of care in the DF sense comes up a bit short.
    Thats for an EMT.
    You dont expect every on in the DF to be a trained EMT do you?


    Electrical burns? Poisons? Unless someone gets a crack of a taser while in contact or someone pisses in the water, that doesn't even remotely come under battlefield first aid. It isn't even taught by medics in a battlefield sense, it's taught in a purely civvie situation sense.
    Electrical equipment is used on the modern battlefield, most buildings even on the battlefield have electricity in them, the enemy may electrify a defencive barricade etc.

    Poisons have been used in wars since World War I.

    That's great but again it's not taught in a battlefield sense nor does a fracture really come under battlefield first aid.
    Bones aren't bullet proof

    Again, CASEVAC drills are basic Infantry skills. They're not somethin taught by medics.
    Yes it is.

    It's not exactly dealing with someone with an erterial bleed is it?
    Even soldiers call 999 and ask for help thats why NATO has the 9 liner and use the 007.

    Taught in a civilian sense, again.
    A soldiers body is no different from a civvies body and CPR is performed in the same way.

    Ok, I can make a stretcher out of two SRAAW's and two smocks.
    or a length of rope, roll mat, basha etc.
    Last edited by Rhodes; 3rd May 2011 at 22:44.

  19. #18
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    You dont need a tourniquet to control bleeding the best way is to simply put pressure directly on the wound.
    Ehhhh yeah that'll really work with and IED blast when there's traumatic amputations involved.

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  20. #19
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    You dont need a tourniquet to control bleeding the best way is to simply put pressure directly on the wound.
    LMFAO ROFL Nice one. You have just stumbled into a mine field and have lost your lower leg.Your buddies cant get to you anytime fast because they are prodding the ground with the bayonets that aren't issued out and marking the safe route with the non existant mine tape.So it now up to you to control the arterial bleeding FAST while you writhe around in agony because you have no morphine and try to put direct pressure on a stump with the one non heamostatic FFD you have been issued.Good Luck with that!

    Poisons have been used in wars since World War I.
    Indeed.And we train for that.Better i might add than we train for Battlefield first aid or trauma management.Oh and the POISONS that H.A is refering too are household poisons.The ones dealt with on the Occupational first aid course.Not chemical weapons.


    A soldiers body is no different from a civvies body and CPR is performed in the same way.
    True indeed,but in battlefield triage their are guidleines to help you decide who you even start CPR on.Those who obviously cant be saved dont have time wated on them when their are those who can.We aren't taught that as all our first aid training is based around a civvy course that our current EMT/paramedics undergo with civvy agencies.

    I have completed two formal occupational first aid courses in my time in the DF and a "first aid" module on every tactical course i have done.They are all geared towards civvy situations and are all very basic.I am NOT issued a CAT or any other Trauma management equipment and neither is any other member of my unit(i'm infantry BTW)nor have i ever been trained (officially) how to use them.The only people who are are the medical corps and the ARW combat medics.(Last time i was in the MOUT facility in the DFTC their was pigs blood and empty Israeli FFD wrappers everywhere.Now thats realistic training!If we open our FFD you cant get a new one without the CO certifying you used it on a live casualty FFS)

    Rhodes while i sincerely applaud your loyalty to the DF, in this case its blind loyalty.Our battlefield first aid training is nowhere near where it should be and neither is our issue of basic trauma kit.I mean FFS we dont even get issued a normal IFAK for everyday medical issues.
    Last edited by apod; 3rd May 2011 at 23:10.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  21. #20
    Banned User Pod's Avatar
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    Please God don't let it be me that needs BFTC

    Jesus- there is some seriously dangerous ill-informed discussion here!

    Rhodes -have you ever even seen a sugical amputation lety alone a traumatic one ???
    Let me assure you fcuking pressure will NOT be sufficent!!

    Stick to what you know son and don't show the world your lack of knowledge.
    Last edited by Pod; 3rd May 2011 at 23:15. Reason: spelling

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  23. #21
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    I give up.

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    I'm a bit out of my depth to be discussing emergency trauma treatment with any authority given my limited background, but I would have thought that with today's IED threat, where IEDs are packed to blast out a shed load of shrapnel, it's very possible to incur several traumatic bleeds that would probably require a CAT to be applied sooner than when is typically advised on a civilian 1st Aid course, which is why battlefield first aid is so important.

    From what I understand and from my training many moons ago, soldiers injured in combat are more likely to bleed out quicker given the multitude of wounds inflicted in a short space of time, than a civilian who's had an occupational accident, therefore the priority to identify and stem the heavy bleeding would probably come before an ABC examination. Whereas in Civvy street, an ABC examination is taught to come first. Either way, priorities are different on the battlefield compared to regular civilian occupational hazards.

    If I'm wrong on this, please correct me.

    Personally, I think it's a shame that troops aren't issued basic lifesaving equipment, and that the irony is that someone probably has to die wanting for such equipment, before it's actually issued.

    RGJ, if you're reading this, what's the standard IFAK/Trauma kit that's on issue to regular infantry in BA these days? (EDIT: or R&S or Knocker for that matter...)
    Last edited by SwiftandSure; 4th May 2011 at 00:10.

  25. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    From what I understand and from my training many moons ago, soldiers injured in combat are more likely to bleed out quicker given the multitude of wounds inflicted in a short space of time,
    Correct, the priority for mil casualties is C-ABC
    Catastrophic Haemhorrage, followed by the usual.

    Studies have shown that if you can apply a tourniquet, establish an airway and treat a tension pneumothorax (Collapsed lung), you could save 90-100 % of preventable combat deaths.

  26. #24
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
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    Catastrophic bleed as a result of a limb amputation apply tourniquet 3 finger widths above point of injury and elevate limb. Date and time on casi forehead.
    Last edited by rod and serpent; 4th May 2011 at 00:35.

  27. #25
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Just purchased online. Had been thinking of getting it for a while. Having read of what the plan is for how medics deal with CBA and chest wounds I'm glad I have.

    http://uktactical.com/acatalog/Intermediate_Kit.html
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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