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  1. #26
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HavocIRL View Post
    Just purchased online. Had been thinking of getting it for a while. Having read of what the plan is for how medics deal with CBA and chest wounds I'm glad I have.

    http://uktactical.com/acatalog/Intermediate_Kit.html

    Quick clot no good if you have a shell fish allergy
    also being phased out.

  2. #27
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Talking with Df paramedics very recently on the subject of iv's, intubation etc and they said under phecc they're not allowed do it anymore. Cue very puzzled looks all round

  3. #28
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
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    I carry on my person
    Asherman chest seals X 2
    First fied dressings X3
    Tourniquets X 2
    Guidel airway X 2

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HavocIRL View Post
    Just purchased online. Had been thinking of getting it for a while. Having read of what the plan is for how medics deal with CBA and chest wounds I'm glad I have.

    http://uktactical.com/acatalog/Intermediate_Kit.html
    You're right to really mate. I'd seen that a while back and thought it would be a good investment if you were going overseas.

    Being only in the RDF, with next to no chance of seeing operational service, I've no real need for it, which is why I wouldn't buy it myself. Instead opting to blagging bits and pieces here and there in the true RDF spirit.

  5. #30
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Are Brit medics with plns or are they coy assets?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Talking with Df paramedics very recently on the subject of iv's, intubation etc and they said under phecc they're not allowed do it anymore. Cue very puzzled looks all round
    Again, much like GPMG link, support weapon ammo etc, I would have thought an IV would be carried by everyone (ideally in the same part of their kit), so medics wouldn't be getting bogged down with the weight of them.

    Giving everyone the training to use them would be an added bonus and surely increase in combat effectiveness overall?

  7. #32
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    I'm a bit out of my depth to be discussing emergency trauma treatment with any authority given my limited background, but I would have thought that with today's IED threat, where IEDs are packed to blast out a shed load of shrapnel, it's very possible to incur several traumatic bleeds that would probably require a CAT to be applied sooner than when is typically advised on a civilian 1st Aid course, which is why battlefield first aid is so important.

    From what I understand and from my training many moons ago, soldiers injured in combat are more likely to bleed out quicker given the multitude of wounds inflicted in a short space of time, than a civilian who's had an occupational accident, therefore the priority to identify and stem the heavy bleeding would probably come before an ABC examination. Whereas in Civvy street, an ABC examination is taught to come first. Either way, priorities are different on the battlefield compared to regular civilian occupational hazards.

    If I'm wrong on this, please correct me.

    Personally, I think it's a shame that troops aren't issued basic lifesaving equipment, and that the irony is that someone probably has to die wanting for such equipment, before it's actually issued.

    RGJ, if you're reading this, what's the standard IFAK/Trauma kit that's on issue to regular infantry in BA these days? (EDIT: or R&S or Knocker for that matter...)

    S & S its C A B C now , the rationale behind this is that in theory a traumatic amputation of limb will cause an earlier death than a non breathing casualty. It has been proven in combat that a casi can bleed to death in less than one minute from an amputated limb wheras a non breathing casi has upto 4 mins before serious damage occurs.

    If you can get a copy of the BATLS book it has all the upto date stuff in it.

  8. #33
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Are Brit medics with plns or are they coy assets?

    Coy asset, team medics are filtered down to the platoons and sections.

  9. #34
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    what's the standard IFAK/Trauma kit that's on issue to regular infantry in BA these days?
    depends on if you are a basic grunt or team medic.

    in barracks in peacetime as a grunt you generally are limited to untold FFD's, and CAT's are issued frequently if you have a decent BCDT instructor in your sub-unit who can get hold of enough of them (i'm a BCDT instructor so we get them) and Asherman Chest Seals and Geudal Airways are there for the taking too.

    Platoon Sergeants will normally approach the CQMS and the Med Centre when required - who will dish out a whole load of goodies including more CATS, Guedel Airways and plenty of Asherman Chest seals along with combat scissors and the like.

    most grunts hang onto this kit and it becomes part of their own trauma kit.

    so i wouldn't really say we get 'issued' it - we just get hold of it through the system and it is encouraged.

    Team Medics get a whole load of kit including IV and combat stretchers and a special rocket pouch for all the goodies to go into.

    it's too late for me to ask any Riflemen who have been out there recently to give you a truer picture but Knocker and Keef will know how things are right now.
    RGJ

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    The Rifles

  10. #35
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    I downloaded a copy of the BCDT TAM and showed it to a mate who's a medic.He said it was a great idea and the knowledge contained within was solid but that if he used it or gave it out to students and they used the info contained inside than if something went wrong with a casualty then he could be prosecuted because it want a DF approved document.
    Funny that we dotn seem to have a problem with using "Survive to fight " as our CBRN bible even though its not a DF document

    While we are on the subject i am reliably informed that our current medical corps training is about to change.instead of doing the 2-3* medic course and going on then to do the ambulance skills course and wilderness EMT.You will just do Combat medic level one course.
    EMT and Paramedic will be combined into combat medic level two course.

    If fianoglach is on the money than our individual battlefield FA training should improve greatly.I know the current CS of the medical school came from a very combat orientated unit before his current posting and i believe he is one of the driving forces in all this.Fair play and about time.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  11. #36
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    the BCDT TAM is a brilliant bit of kit but you must remain calm to use it properly (easier said than done believe me).

    for a smaller army, producing such an item specifically for the Irish DF would not be very cost effective so i can see why it isn't implemented.

    the changes you mention though seem a great step in the right direction apod, nice one.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  12. #37
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    for a smaller army, producing such an item specifically for the Irish DF would not be very cost effective so i can see why it isn't implemented.
    Exactly.that why we use "survive to fight" for our CBRN drills.The drills are sound our Resi was the same as yours up till recently etc etc.I actually asked the question on my NBC instructor course(shows how long i am qualified) as to why we didnt produce our own pamphlet."If it isnt broke why fix it"was the reply.
    Why cant we do the same with the BCDT TAM??
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  13. #38
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Where can I get a copy of this TAM?

    I always felt that Medical training was neglected on the various courses/exercises I've done. The medical lectures I have done have focused more on the first aid aspect of things as opposed to battlefield first aid. And has not been very comprehensive.

    More can be done.
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

  14. #39
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
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    I teach it

  15. #40
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod and serpent View Post
    I teach it
    me too

    but don't have the REAL experience you have.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod and serpent View Post
    S & S its C A B C now , the rationale behind this is that in theory a traumatic amputation of limb will cause an earlier death than a non breathing casualty. It has been proven in combat that a casi can bleed to death in less than one minute from an amputated limb wheras a non breathing casi has upto 4 mins before serious damage occurs.
    Cheers for the clarification mate. It's been a long time since I've touched this stuff. It's certainly worth thinking about.

    If you can get a copy of the BATLS book it has all the upto date stuff in it.
    Is there anywhere it can be downloaded from? Or if you have a copy, could you PM me?

    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    I downloaded a copy of the BCDT TAM...
    Got a link?

  17. #42
    BQMS Liachta Cultaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    Cheers for the clarification mate. It's been a long time since I've touched this stuff. It's certainly worth thinking about.



    Is there anywhere it can be downloaded from? Or if you have a copy, could you PM me?



    Got a link?
    http://www.222-atc.org.uk/Resources/...de_memoire.pdf
    I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

  18. #43
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    Thanks LC, nice one, the one I have is from 2000, so probably well out of date at this stage.

    Will get this one printed and laminated instead. Cheers!

  19. #44
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    If you can get a copy of the BATLS book it has all the upto date stuff in it.
    Is that a different name for the BCDT TAM or are they two different beasts?
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  20. #45
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liachta Cultaca View Post
    Nice one L-C, have saved a copy of that
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  21. #46
    BQMS Liachta Cultaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Is that a different name for the BCDT TAM or are they two different beasts?
    BATLS - battlefield advanced trauma life support and would be alot more detailed than the above TAM

    Members of the medical school attended this course a number of years ago as Observers
    I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

  22. #47
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liachta Cultaca View Post
    BATLS - battlefield advanced trauma life support and would be alot more detailed than the above TAM

    Members of the medical school attended this course a number of years ago as Observers
    LC.Thanks for the clarification.
    Now if they could go as observers how come we haven't sent people on the course?Or have we?And if we did how come the knowledge isnt filtering down to those who would need it most?
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  23. #48
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    LC.Thanks for the clarification.
    Now if they could go as observers how come we haven't sent people on the course?Or have we?And if we did how come the knowledge isnt filtering down to those who would need it most?
    apod, from experience mate - any 'observer' i have ever encountered on a course has actually completed the full course.

    the term 'observer' is generally only used to get people past the red tape and on the course and once they turn up they are very much part of the course and will be fully integrated by the instructors.

    i would be fairly confident that any members of the Irish DF who did attend as 'observers' actually successfully completed the course.

    would be good if we did more of this though - joint training.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  24. #49
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    LC.Thanks for the clarification.
    Now if they could go as observers how come we haven't sent people on the course?Or have we?
    On medical courses, there are a lot of medico-legal issues around peoples qualifications and registration, (especially if they are not registered in the country where the course is being run). Some of the practical procedures taught may be outside the remit of the trade of the observer, or the continuing practical experience to maintain competence may not be available.

    I know from having been an observer on a civvy Advanced Trauma Life Support course that a lot of the procedures that were used on these courses were not actually taught in great depth, it was more the situations where they would be used and the processes behind deciding when to use them.

    But saying that someone has passed the course is saying they are competent to do everything on the course, which if someone is from outside the jurisdiction has got a lot of issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    And if we did how come the knowledge isnt filtering down to those who would need it most?
    Setting up these courses and getting them recognised and accredited is very time-consuming, selecting and training suitable people as trainers, getting a syllabus agreed, having a suitable pool of people to provide oversight and peer review of the content, just to mention a few points. I won't even start on the hoops that have to be jumped through for an employer to provide legal indemnity for employees who follow the procedures taught, in case of a claim if anything goes wrong.

    The content requires constant review as well, when I was an Advanced Life Support instructor there was constant updating and changing of the syllabus, we rarely had two courses in a row with no changes - and that was just relatively simple algorithms to treat a fairly definite condition (cardiac arrest).

    I have no idea what the Irish Army position is, just pointing out it's a bit more complicated than at first glance.
    Last edited by Flamingo; 5th May 2011 at 22:43.
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  25. #50
    Gunner concussion's Avatar
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    Current US IFAK contains, to the best of my knowledge;

    Combat Application Tourniquet
    Nasopharangeal Airway
    Quikclot or other haemostatic agent
    Rolls of gauze
    Elastic bandage
    Roll of tape
    Gloves
    Pill pack - antibiotics and ibuprofen.
    Paramedic shears


    This alllows self/buddy aid for bleeding and airway until the team medic can take over.
    Last edited by concussion; 7th May 2011 at 11:32.
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