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  1. #51
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concussion View Post
    Current US IFAK contains, to the best of my knowledge;

    Combat Application Tourniquet
    Nasopharangeal Airway
    Quikclot or other haemostatic agent
    Rolls of gauze
    Elastic bandage
    Roll of tape
    Gloves
    Pill pack - antibiotics and ibuprofen.
    Paramedic shears


    This alllows self/buddy aid for bleeding and airway until the team medic can take over.
    Issued?
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  2. #52
    Gunner concussion's Avatar
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    Yes, personal issue. The US have also embraced the concept of the 'Combat Lifesaver' who is a non-medical soldier trained in care under fire, tactical combat care and evacuation. Where feasible, ie where it would impact on their primary duty as, eg, a rifleman , they provide enough trauma care (airway maintenance, treatment of catstropic bleeding, pneumo/hemothorax, IV's) to the casualty until a medic can take over.

    http://www.armyproperty.com/Resource...ew-CLS-Bag.htm
    Attached Files Attached Files
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  3. #53
    CQMS ARNGScout's Avatar
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    Prior to our deployment at least 80% of the soldiers were certified in Combat Lifesaver. The training is good but like everything it requires constant reinforcement. What helps too is that there is an extra Combat lifesavers medical bag that is also carried - this supplements everything carried by the medics. It has proven itself in Operational environments - when one of our units hit an IED it was the medic who needed to be treated - he was able to direct the people treating him (which helped) before passing out. Their actions saved his life.
    There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

  4. #54
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARNGScout View Post
    Prior to our deployment at least 80% of the soldiers were certified in Combat Lifesaver. The training is good but like everything it requires constant reinforcement. What helps too is that there is an extra Combat lifesavers medical bag that is also carried - this supplements everything carried by the medics. It has proven itself in Operational environments - when one of our units hit an IED it was the medic who needed to be treated - he was able to direct the people treating him (which helped) before passing out. Their actions saved his life.
    Now THAT medic is NAILS !!!
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  5. #55
    CQMS ARNGScout's Avatar
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    Now THAT medic is NAILS !!!
    Yes he is, considering it was a double amputation (legs), and the disorientation of the blast itself, it is amazing he managed to stay composed and keep his head straight to be able to direct them. I certainly couldn't have done that - I think I would have lost the plot totally. The remainder of the crew were critical also with severe wounds - the nine line listed them as litter urgent (we had an hour tops to get them back in and to the hospital) but they were all treated at the scene by their fellow soldiers who had all done the Combat lifesaver course.
    There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

  6. #56
    Wacky Waver!!!! Goose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Talking with Df paramedics very recently on the subject of iv's, intubation etc and they said under phecc they're not allowed do it anymore. Cue very puzzled looks all round
    If the Army is training medics under Phecc, you are right there are a lot of things that they won't be able to do that will surprise people. Not sure about Iv's but a paramedic should be able to add an airway no problem. One thing that is a no no under phecc is tourniquets under any level of qualification. As Rhodes said before, the way massive bleeds and amputations are dealt with is with pressure and dressings, lots of them if need be. I have heard though that the Army hasn't fully signed up to Phecc so maybe thats how they are going to get around it. In a battlefield situation if a tourniquet is needed, a tourniquet is needed and thats it.

  7. #57
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics can use a tourniquet, only an advanced paramedic can give an IV



    http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clini...s%20matrix.pdf

  8. #58
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    i presume individual soldiers can also use tourniquets and are trained accordingly?
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  9. #59
    BQMS Liachta Cultaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics can use a tourniquet, only an advanced paramedic can give an IV



    http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clini...s%20matrix.pdf

    Not true.......see http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clini...s%20Matrix.pdf
    I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

  10. #60
    Wacky Waver!!!! Goose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics can use a tourniquet, only an advanced paramedic can give an IV



    http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clini...s%20matrix.pdf
    That must have been updated over the last while then. I remember talking to a paramedic a couple of years ago and he said that tourniquets were not allowed to be used but I could have gotten it wrong. It was also before phecc had properly came into play so things were still being decided on. It still leaves open the possibility that if your average soldier is only going to be trained to EFR level, that he/she will still not be able to apply a tourniquet and will have to wait on a paramedic unless some agreements or exceptions can worked out.

  11. #61
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    applying a tourniquet is basic battlefield first-aid - every soldier should be trained in it and issued one when required.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    applying a tourniquet is basic battlefield first-aid - every soldier should be trained in it and issued one when required.
    Ah sure it's grand, we'll get by without needing to do that.



    In my experience, the above is the mindset of the majority of people in command positions in the DF. There's a difference between a leader and a manager. We have lots of managers with very few leaders.

    The mindset of those in command will never change until we go on Ops and start taking casualties are involved in proper combat Ops akin to those your lads are carrying out in A'Stan. I can't see us getting invovled in those kind of Ops anytime soon, so the majority of the DF, with a few exceptions, will just continue to wander down the road of ignorance. Oblivious to or else purposely ignoring, our many shortcomings.
    Last edited by Hello Alaska; 13th May 2011 at 00:47.

  13. #63
    Wacky Waver!!!! Goose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    applying a tourniquet is basic battlefield first-aid - every soldier should be trained in it and issued one when required.
    It is and it should be. I've done the training myself so know whats involved and its not complicated. I just see the current medical regulations in Ireland posing a problem when it comes to what soldier can and cannot do. Reading back over the thread I see Fiannoglach said he believes the DF are possibly looking at introducing military specific modules into the training so maybe they have worked it out.

  14. #64
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    applying a tourniquet is basic battlefield first-aid - every soldier should be trained in it and issued one when required.
    I, in common with all my fellow recruits, was taught this in my
    first aid module by a Sgt in my then unit, who was a medic with DFB
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  15. #65
    jang-a-lang turbocalves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    I, in common with all my fellow recruits, was taught this in my
    first aid module by a Sgt in my then unit, who was a medic with DFB
    But that was what 20 years ago??? And just because your Sgt was a fireman, doesnt mean that the army recognised his qualifications. Furthermore just because you were taught it doesnt mean it was on the syllabus. And if it was why is it not any more??

    There is a lad in our unit (I believe you know him) who is also DFB and has gotten himself covered to do the Rec FA lectures and I have sat in on these and there was no mention of tourniquet- and this is also the case in lectures given from the Med Coy that I have sat in on.

    I think HA has a point that there are too many managers, and too few leaders. It needs somebody up the chain to realise that the way things are is bollocks and get a grip of it. But as with many many other things thats not gonna happen.....
    But there's no danger
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  16. #66
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    APOD, Excellent posts re lack of realistic battlefield medic training.
    As an Idea why dont PDFORRA not bring it up as an issue, our guys should be trained etc or some will die and we will sue.
    Whty are Batt Cos not kicking up a racket.
    My Trg in thsi area in Df was extremely poor but I receioved trg at my own expense elsewhere,
    But not up to modern medic standard,
    Is there a blue moon tonight?

  17. #67
    Brigadier General
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    Is it the case that when a doctor discovers that a tourniquet has been used

    he will amputate due to the danger of gangrene setting in. ????

  18. #68
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbocalves View Post
    But that was what 20 years ago??? And just because your Sgt was a fireman, doesnt mean that the army recognised his qualifications. Furthermore just because you were taught it doesnt mean it was on the syllabus. And if it was why is it not any more??
    21 years ago and counting
    As for why not now, well, like anything, as new discoveries are made, protocols are
    removed or amended - medicine would be no different in that regard

    There is a lad in our unit (I believe you know him) who is also DFB and has gotten himself covered to do the Rec FA lectures and I have sat in on these and there was no mention of tourniquet- and this is also the case in lectures given from the Med Coy that I have sat in on
    I do indeed know him, a good lad

    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Is it the case that when a doctor discovers that a tourniquet has been used

    he will amputate due to the danger of gangrene setting in. ????
    From the training we received many moons ago, I seem to recall that a tourniquet should not be
    kept on for longer than a minute at a time, to prevent this
    But as I said above, medical protocols have changed over time, so I say this advisedly

    Given the choice:
    You come across a casualty with a severe leg wound
    Bleed out to death in approx 2 mins, or apply the tourniquet, improve
    the survival possibility, survive and lose the limb ? Your choice is....
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  19. #69
    Gunner concussion's Avatar
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    Max 2 hours for a tourniquet or you risk major damage. Mark casualties forehead TK plus time of application and ensure to keep the device uncovered so it can be seen.

    US Combat Lifesaver course teaches that the only treatment while under fire is to apply a tourniquet. Once the tactical situation has stabilised the CLS will then attempt to remove the TK and treat with direct pressure if feasible. If a TK has been on for longer than 6 hours it should only be removed by medical personnel.


    Note - I have NOT completed a tactical medical course such as CLS or BATLS.
    "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BANDIT View Post
    APOD, Excellent posts re lack of realistic battlefield medic training.
    As an Idea why dont PDFORRA not bring it up as an issue, our guys should be trained etc or some will die and we will sue.
    Whty are Batt Cos not kicking up a racket.
    My Trg in thsi area in Df was extremely poor but I receioved trg at my own expense elsewhere,
    But not up to modern medic standard,
    Is there a blue moon tonight?
    It's pure and utter laziness.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    21 years ago and counting

    From the training we received many moons ago, I seem to recall that a tourniquet should not be kept on for longer than a minute at a time, to prevent this
    But as I said above, medical protocols have changed over time, so I say this advisedly

    Given the choice:
    You come across a casualty with a severe leg wound
    Bleed out to death in approx 2 mins, or apply the tourniquet, improve
    the survival possibility, survive and lose the limb ? Your choice is....

    TD
    My handbook used to say that a tourniquet should not be applied unless various actions had been tried-

    a If on a limb elevate the part
    b Apply direct pressure using a dressing pad
    c Apply a further pad of cotton wool and bandage
    d If bleeding continues apply digital pressure on the main artery supplying the part for at least 5 mins. until a clot has formed

    If all that fails only then apply a tourniquet
    1 Note time on patients forehead
    2 Release every 15 mins. for 30 seconds.

    But that was some time ago as well.
    Last edited by timhorgan; 14th May 2011 at 19:26.

  22. #72
    CQMS ARNGScout's Avatar
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    The idea of using a tourniquet is for stabilization of the patient (where needed) so that he can be evaced back for more thorough care.

    In the case I mentioned above, from the time of the incident to when the medevac landed it was about 45 mins (too long but that's another story). The soldiers on the ground used two tourniquets to stop the bleeding and try and stabilize him. Considering that there can be and in this case were other critically wounded soldiers you do what you need to with an understanding that you are going to try and get him to those who can provide more specialized care. It is somewhat criminal to think that any army, considering the threats on the modern battlefield, don't consider all options to help treat a soldier and save their life. In the case of our medic, if we didn't have/weren't trained in/weren't allowed to use tourniquets then he would have been another KIA along with the driver of the vehicle.

    I would like to add though, I'm not a medic, I'm CLS qualified (for whatever that is worth) but I'm just drawing from the experience of my deployment.
    There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

  23. #73
    Closed knocker's Avatar
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    Great post , id sum it up in 3 words " Duty Of Care "
    Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier - Samuel Johnson

  24. #74
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Well said, ARNGScout

    As I said above, and what was always drummed into us in those
    medical lectures, "stop the bleeding, the infecttion can be dealt with afterwards"
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  25. #75
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    Casualties slow up the assault.....most of them are screwed when they are hit. The way to prevent the casualties is to destroy the threat quickly, all of them .......usually with lots of bombs, bullets, knives and well trained aggressive killers that expect to be hurt if they screw up. Basic first aid works on the battle field. when you start training guys in high speed low drag medical techniques ..it only distracts them from killing the enemy....."Blood makes the grass grow"

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