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  1. #1
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Post Naval Wishlist(realistic)

    In response to a query from a reasonable member of the board (not newby) here is the List of ship requirements for the Modern Irish naval service. Call it the ultimate wish list, for current requirements.




    The Wish list as mentioned came about before and after the white paper most notably from the Report to the Steering Group of the Irish Naval Service and Air Corps, A former Naval service senior officer both of these are on the web, but I cant remember where.
    The Steering group recommended certain changes in the logistics and taskings of the Naval service, but with an 8 ship navy, with the then current (1998) fleet being replaced over 18 years at a cost of IR£195m with ships more suitably equipped for the role.
    The former Naval officer, Peadar McElhinny, Pointed out that the Average Naval fleet in Europe was 88 ships, with the Belgians, who had territorial seas a fraction the size of our own have 18 vessels. Having 8 ships he said was the same as the Gardai having one Patrol car to cover the Whole Island of Ireland! The Naval service was looking for a minimum 15-ship fleet.

    But by far the Beefiest wish list that made its way into the public domain was printed in the July/August issue of on Cosantoir in 1999.In an article written by one Greg Browne who had earlier written a similar piece about the Air Corps.
    The requirements given the current tasks and responsibilities of the Naval service sought the following fleet, which isn't that far fetched really.

    #4 Multi Purpose Guided Missile frigates equipped with Helicopter, SAM, SSM, CIWS and AS Torpedoes.
    Capable of 30 kts these ships would require a crew of 150-200 and cost Between IR£200 and IR£250
    Examples include the VSEL Frigate 2000,Chantiers de l'Atlantique Floreal and Meko 200




    #4 P31 Helicopter carrying Frigates equipped with Helicopter,SAM and AS TT.
    These frigates would require a crew of 85 and would cost approximately IR£55m



    #4 P51 Corvettes upgraded to include SONAR,air/surface radar,SAM,AS TT and Minelaying capability
    The Corvettes would require a crew of 60 and would cost IR£35m upgraded



    #4 Minesweepers armed with CIWS and GAMB-01 Cannon performing a secondary coastal patrol function.
    The Minesweepers would require a crew of 45 and cost IR£20m.Examples include the Lurssen 323 Class and the Fincantieri Gaeta




    #A-17 Fleet replenishment Auxiliary.This Ocean capable vessel would be capable of undertaking replenishment in sea state 6 and would have facilities for 50 trainees. This vessel would have a crew of 120 plus an optional 50 trainees and would cost IR£60m



    #A-18 Ocean Going Tug.Capable of Dive support Operations,150 tonne Bollard pull,and pollution control. The Ocean Going Tug would have a crew of 40 and would cost IR£25m



    #A-19 Hydrographic Survey Vessel.A Specialist shallow Draft ship also capable of pollution control and drug interdiction. The ship would be crewed by 30-40 and would cost in the region of IR£20m



    Nothing too fancy there,though the cost is a bit excessive,mostly because the Naval service has been neglected for so long,like everything else in this country. But the author ends with a quote from Richard Sharpe of Jane's Fighting Ships.
    "An efficient Navy with a tradition of loyal service to the national government is a priceless asset which once squandered, will be difficult to reclaim."
    Last edited by Goldie fish; 9th October 2007 at 20:59.

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  3. #2
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    What would the personnel implications for the NS be of this plan?
    .
    .
    .
    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  4. #3
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Do the maths..and multiply by 4 at least..

  5. #4
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Could a similar workload be managed by a smaller number of standard flex type multirole vessels?
    Like 6 SF300s and 2 SF3000s and maybe a merchant support vessel?
    It would still leave the fleet under a lot of pressure FP wise but it would allow for a broader array of international missions maybe even gradually supplanting cod watching as the NS primary task?
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  6. #5
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Okay your the boss lets have all of the above.....nice choices and quite practical.........no fantasies her.......build or buy ? If we signed up to Nato do you think we might get some body to pay for this lot.....
    Time for another break I think......

  7. #6
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Do we have the facilities to build?
    I think there could be some local sourcing potential for the various modules but where in the republic would we get a military hull laid down?
    As with the MLHs EU funding would be available for anything that carries maritime surveillance equipment for FP...other than that we'd have to fork out ourselves unless we threw ourselves prostrate to the US or France..
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  8. #7
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Buying the above ships "off the shelf" rather than designing them specifically for our purposes is a more economical alternative in the long run. The P50 class for example,a Canadian design(Guardian- Kvaerner Masa)built in the UK,supervised by Naval personell,was probably the most effective build of the NS so far, with the second ship being built ahead of schedule,and carrying out duties,some months before being formerly comissioned into service. Last time a NS veasel was built in Ireland, the cost doubled,and it was delivered almost 3 years after the Keel was laid. Most of this was due to industrial disputes,but the current tendering process means that such an event would hit the wallet of the Builder,not the state.
    There is a wealth of experienced dockyards in europe,who regularly build ships to naval specifications, and the current trend is to build the hull (quickly) in Japan or Korea,and build the superstructure and fitout in one of the european dockyards. The Research vessel pictured above was such a ship,as was the Irish Lights Tender Grainuaille.
    I would be inclined to think that the new european Defence Agency would speed up,or even assist in the aquisition of Naval vessels if required. All the designs mentioned above are built by EU members. Surely it would make economic sense,should the decision be made, to assist one member in buying military equipment of any sort,from another member state? Also fisheries protection is no longer the sole motivating force behind EU naval spending. Drugs surveillance,human trafficing,piracy and of course terrorism has also leapt into the EU list of priorities.

  9. #8
    Soft-spoken Engineer Slacker's Avatar
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    *stops swabbing deck*

    What about Harland & Wolff up North? I'd say a few small US Coast Guard-type vessels would do the job nicely, and maybe something larger for peacekeeping. What do you think? Guys? Hello?

    *looks around at the stunned silence*

    *resumes swabbing deck*
    I appreciate that you're my employer, and an old man besides....

    But if you don't take your goddamn hands off me, I will cut you in half.

  10. #9
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    H&W are now closed,70 of their workers are now doing contract ship repair in Cork Dockyard.
    Eithne is quite comparable to USCG patrol vessels,with the exception of the CIWS.

    You missed a spot...

  11. #10
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    The only thing the USCG have that I think would be very useful for us is a rib with an inboard engine.... Saw one on Gallatin some years ago in Cork. Multirole is the way to go. The current ships are fine for their current tasks,but there is a huge drug smuggling business going on in irish waters that the NS has had little success in preventing. The "snowflake" logos on the Bridge wing of gallatin telling of her sucessful anti drug operations show the real difference.
    Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

  12. #11
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Click here for more details,and a useful interactive tool about the ANZAC design(MEKO 200)

  13. #12
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    So if we buy who will pay?.....where do the crews come from and how long does it take to make this force operational.

    The EU will hardly pay for all of it so do we have to sign up to a military alliance to offset the cost. Could we not take the south American model on board and buy second hand and then buy the more specialist roles off the shelf.

    I'm not been facetious ...I like the idea ...I'm just curious to see the workings of the idea.Lets assume that the government did deciade that we required a force of the nature ( which we do!) how would the whole plan fall together ...Obviously there would be a need for increased base and repair facilities......Cold the NS take over the former VCD and use it as a repairfacility....what implications would there be for job creation and financial benefit to the surrounding area.
    Time for another break I think......

  14. #13
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Speaking to an informed source this morning,apparently the powers that be have it in their mind that if the NS is being limited to an 8 ship navy,the Next retirement(L.E.Emer in about 5 years time) will be replaced by a much larger vessel,larger than anything ever seen in irish service.

  15. #14
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    Goldie, I heard the same thing last year. The phrase 'steel is cheap' was mentioned.

  16. #15
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    Would such a vessel then by its nature have a helideck?
    .
    .
    .
    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  17. #16
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I imagine a deck,but not a hangar...The phrase "a larger ship would mean more work,and less unemployment" was also uttered.
    Could the experience of the NS in Liberia ,combined with the use of the Dutch Amphib "Rotterdam" have woken up the powers that be to a possible contingency plan for future missions,rather than hoping there will be someone other than us to do the job.
    If you consider the Dutch are doing medevac with Navy Lynx....

  18. #17
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    WE NEED TO GET AWAY FROM THE HELICOPTER CONCEPT AS WE DON'T HAVE ANY SUITABLE HELOS TO OPERATE.lETS DO THE THING RIGHT THIS TIME


    The concept should be build the ship to suit the Helo and thus increasing flexibility rather than trying to buy a helo to suit the ship. I would be sceptical of the 8 ship navy theory as it has been confirmed by interested parties that 12 would be an absolute minimum in the future.
    Time for another break I think......

  19. #18
    4th Northeran Division
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    Guys its nice to dream , and I'm afraid thats what you are doing. We are never goting to join Nato, we are never, unfortunatly, going to aquire the above "wish list". As has been stated quite reguraly on this board, our government will never, in the current political climate, commit such hugh sums (in Irish terms) to acquire these ships. It would be great if they did, we would all like to see it happen, but it wont. It would be political suacide for the government to include these ships cost into a budget. Imagine the upror, hosiptal beds, the homeless roads and rail networks, etc etc are where people want the money spent.

    If it means the RAF or USAF protecting our skys during EU/US sumits, and as I can see in the future, European warships patroling our waters (because we wont commit fully to an EU military machie) as they (the EU) will want a secure area in their costal duristiction which Ireland cannot secure and which our government will not pay out to secure. They would rather give the cost of the problem to somebody else, as will happen during the fourth coming EU summit over OUR skys!

  20. #19
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    Goldie, Aidan
    I assume that they have something in mind like the multi-role vessel that New Zealand is getting as part of poroject protector.

  21. #20
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    Speaking of new vessels, I saw a report (dated Nov. ?, 2003) that says Appledore has gone into receivership, as it has not attracted any new orders since building the L.E. Niamh, any ideas who the NS will get to build more of the class if/when they require them (or will it be so far in the future that there may not be any European shipyards left)?

    IAS

  22. #21
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Appledore was one of the partners in the construction of the New class of RN ships. They also built sections of the Strategic Sealift Service ships.

    They built the Research ship, HMS Scott,and were due to be involved in the construction of the RNs Type 45 destroyers Class ships
    However there are no shortage of Yards in the UK and Europe capable of building suitable ships if required,and in the current market prices would be competitive. VT(Vosper Thornycroft) would be lead in the running I am sure with their current River Class fishery protection design.

    Redundancy for ship workers


    Roy Harkness said redundancy letters have been sent to all staff
    A union official at Britain's oldest firm of commercial shipbuilders said on Tuesday night that all 550 workers at the yard have been made redundant.
    Roy Harkness, union convener at Appledore Shipbuilders, said receivers will go into the 148-year-old complex in north Devon on Wednesday morning to wind up the business.

    The receivers, Tenon Recovery, spent the day in meetings with union representatives and the workforce.

    Workers started demonstrating outside the yard on Sunday following a meeting with chairman John Langham on Friday, and many are expected to be there on Wednesday. We had to tell every man and woman at the yard they have been made redundant from this afternoon

    Roy Harkness, union convenor

    The chairman has said there was no option but to call in the receivers.

    The yard completed its last ship nearly a month ago.

    The company, which had no work in hand, said it lost £1.3m last year and lost a further £1.9m in the first half of this year.

    But Mr Harkness said on Tuesday night he believed there was "a silver lining".

    "We are hoping that from the ashes should be resurrected a good, profitable business," he said.

    "We had to tell every man and woman at the yard they have been made redundant from this afternoon.

    "The yard has closed down. No prospective buyer is going to take on a company so heavily in debt," he said.

    "The redundancy notices have been sent by first class post and will be dropping through their letterboxes."

    'Every assistance'

    He said the receivers would have every assistance from the workforce when they entered the yard on Wednesday morning.

    "Hopefully, working with the unions and a future owner, we shall have good prospects," he said.

    He said members of the Appledore workforce would meet national union officials attending the Labour Party conference in Bournemouth.

    Appledore Shipbuilders was founded in 1855 and the firm had one of the biggest enclosed ship-building factories in Britain in the 1960s, building hundreds of vessels.

    The yard, based on the River Torridge, has built more than 350 ships, including naval fishery protection vessels, trawlers, passenger-vehicle ferries, dredgers and bulk carriers.

  23. #22
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The Tug above is stationed in the Minch,off the Coast of Scotland,and comes under the remit of HM Coastguard.
    The Maritime and Safety Agency has. at present, four Emergency Towing Vessels on charter around the coast of the United Kingdom. This is in accordance with Lord Donaldson's report (safer ships, cleaner seas), which recommended that emergency towing cover should be provided in those areas adjudged to be at a higher risk of environmental damage, which may result after a possible grounding of a broken down vessel. These tugs are based in the Dover Strait, the South Western Approaches to the Channel, the Fair Isle Channel between the Orkney Islands and the Shetland Islands, and of course, in the Minches .

    1. Following the announcement from the then Minister of Shipping in Parliament on the 10th February 1998 that the Government was satisfied that the trials carried out since 1994 by the previous Coastguard Agency had demonstrated the capabilities of emergency tugs in preventing or lessening such risks. Negotiations with tug owners then took place.

    2. The establishment of Emergency Towing Vessels (ETVs) was on to Lord Donaldson’s recommendations in his report ‘Safer Ships, Cleaner Seas’ which the Government commissioned during the grounding of the ‘Braer’ Shetland in 1993.

    3. A further study undertaken by Captain Belton RN made further recommendations concerning the most appropriate locations for the vessels. Ministers decided that the then Coastguard Agency should undertake trials of vessels initially in the Dover Strait and the Minches. Latterly, a third vessel was stationed to provided cover for the Western Approaches. The trials were completed at the end of March 1998, although t Report of trials and an associated cost benefit analysis produced by the Agency aided the Government’s decision to ensure emergency cover will still be provided on a longer term basis.

    4. Contracts were awarded in March 1998 to Klyne Tugs (Lowestoft) Ltd for the Anchor handler / salvage tug ‘Anglian Prince’ to be based at Stornoway for the winters 1998 / 99, 1999 / 00 and 2000 / 01, providing cover for North West Scotland.
    HM Coastguard Link
    The primary role of the Coastguard Tug is emergency towing to prevent pollution damage occurring on the Coastline. Even so, the vessel has a number of "Secondary Duties" as follows



    a. Search and Rescue

    b. Counter Pollution

    c. Guardship Duties

    d. Surveillance and Traffic Separation Scheme Identification

    e. Assistance to other Government departments


    Bad and all as british politicians have been in the past,at least when something hits them in the face,they react. How long ago was it since the Bulker Yarrawonga was threatened with a shot from Eithne to prevent her spilling her cargo on the West coast?

  24. #23
    Aha: Death=Preconception Lordinajamjar's Avatar
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    xxxxx
    Last edited by lordinajamjar; 23rd November 2004 at 14:38.

  25. #24
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The estimates were based on 1997 prices,when prices for replacement would be smaller than todays prices. Each P50 type cost £22m,in this estimate and the intention is to replace all the P20 and P40 class with this type,and replace Eithne with a type then costing £30m,which would not fall due for replacement until 2013. The balance would be for Vessel refits as they fall due in the years between the report and replacment.
    The report was a suggestion on how the replacment could be carried out effectively,nothing was written in stone,and while much of the report has been implemented,much more(Medium Lift Helis) has been abandoned.
    The next vessel due for replacment is LE Emer in 2006-2008.
    I have the file on PDF if anyone wants it..I cannot remember where I downloaded it from...
    It also recommended that great savings could be made from ending the SAR Contract on the West and east coast...and the Government has stuck to that end of the bargain religiously,even doing so on the suggested date.

  26. #25
    Aha: Death=Preconception Lordinajamjar's Avatar
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    Last edited by lordinajamjar; 23rd November 2004 at 14:38.

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