Search for survivors of the 'Swanland' cargo ship

[DeV]

If the RAF still had Nimrod, would it have complimented this rescue effort?

Would they have been able to get on-scene expeditiously?

Did HM Coastguard need to request the CASA because this capability has been lost?

I did read somewhere at the time that an RAF Hercules was being kitted out for this sort of thing, but it doesn't appear to have been deployed here...

There was another incident of this type yesterday....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16105204

The RAF C130's radar only has a basic maritime search capability. The last time the aircraft was deployed on a SAR role was in 2009. Also interesting to note is the E3-D Sentry which is packed with gadgets, also only has a limited maritime search capability.

the loss of Nimrod (or, perhaps more accurately, the loss of a fast Long Range MPA) is, i believe, a catastrophic loss to SAR in the north east atlantic.

the UK Contingencies C-130 can do a SAR/top cover job, but it's not a role the crews practice often, the equipment used was, in my understanding, bought donkeys years ago and stuffed at the back of a hanger at Lyneham and never saw the light of day for 20 years, and the C-130 just doesn't have the communications and maritime surveilance equipment that Nimrod had, so will have more difficulty finding the target and less ability to talk to it, and to talk to other vessels/aircraft nearby.

the Aircraft used won't, as far as i understand, be modified in anyway - its just whatever bog-standard C-130 happens to be on duty at the time - no FLIR, no illumination, no maritime specific search radar, just a group of blokes who can man radios and shove a lifeboat out the back.

C-130 could be a good SAR/Top Cover aircraft - fit a decent sea-search radar, good communications, small ELINT capability, FLIR and illumination, and you have an aircraft that could sit over a rescue site for hours, it could refuel SAR helicopters on site, it has a massive payload and i't built like a brick shithouse - but it would need the kit.

Nimrod was held at 2 hours notice when operational.

SAR cover in the Falklands is provided by Hercules but not sure if they have any specialist equipment.

[ropebag]

SAR cover in the Falklands is provided by Hercules but not sure if they have any specialist equipment.

the FI C-130 has an air deployable liferaft-thing (effectively they shove it out the back, hope not to kill the recipient with it, and then wait for a fishing boat to come and rescue the casualties+lifeboat thing), the crews there practice it rather more than the crews in the UK - when there are crews in the UK - but its just a cargo plane lobbing life rings out of the back: the radar on an RAF C-130 might see an aircraft carrier in heavy seas, but i wouldn't bet on it, its just going to be blokes with binoculars in a WW2 styleee.

i had heard good things about E-3D's maritime surveilance capability - it appears to work quite well at locating surface targets and has a good comms fit, but it can't drop down and have a look, or throw anything out the back to help.

to describe the situation as a disgrace is to be overly charitable - like many i've heard rumours about a future P-8 buy for the RN, but it won't be soon, and i'm fairly certain that people, especially people 800 miles out in the Atlantic, will die because of this idiot decision. to say nothing of the risk it places the UK's nuclear deterant at.

walls, blindfolds, and rifles leap to mind...

[easyrider]

Clearly the UK is no longer able to fulfil its SAR requirements. Perhaps the national AoRs should be adjusted to take this into account, including substantial extensions of the Irish AoR?

[Rhodes]

Clearly the UK is no longer able to fulfil its SAR requirements. Perhaps the national AoRs should be adjusted to take this into account, including substantial extensions of the Irish AoR?

The Dublin and Sligo based Coast Guard helicopters have been carrying out almost all the rescues in the north were a helicopter is needed for a number of years now.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/coastguard_s_survival_is_confirmed_1_3271604

Lady Sylvia said the minister “also gave assurances about the continuing availability of Irish helicopters paid for by the Irish Government to assist the Northern Ireland Coastguard’s rescue efforts”.

[ropebag]

Clearly the UK is no longer able to fulfil its SAR requirements. Perhaps the national AoRs should be adjusted to take this into account, including substantial extensions of the Irish AoR?

i think thats probably reasonable - if the we are abandoning our responsibilities, then we lose the rights that accompany those responsibilities.

sad, sad face.

[spider]

"Clearly the UK is no longer able to fulfil its SAR requirements. Perhaps the national AoRs should be adjusted to take this into account, including substantial extensions of the Irish AoR"?



I see merit in what you are saying Easyrider, but would that not require a significant expansion of the IAC Maritime Squadron?

Could two airframes do the job is what I'm saying?

As Dev pointed out, Nimrod was held at 2hrs notice - though probably not purely for SAR.

[Goldie fish]

I think at one stage, the RAF had 12 Nimrods each in Kinloss and St Mawgan dedicated to SAR/Maritime Patrol.
WHat cover they had in recent years however, I cannot be certain of, given the unavailability of aircraft that were in mid rebuild.

[Rhodes]

I see merit in what you are saying Easyrider, but would that not require a significant expansion of the IAC Maritime Squadron?

Could two airframes do the job is what I'm saying?

Marine SAR is the responsibility of the the Coast Guard not the DF.
While in the budget defence got a €31m cut the Department of Transports maritime budget which covers IRCG got increased by €10m.

[easyrider]

The plan for the MRA4 was only eight or nine airframes, and they would be primarily tasked with ASW. SAR comes lower down their list of priorities.

[easyrider]

"Clearly the UK is no longer able to fulfil its SAR requirements. Perhaps the national AoRs should be adjusted to take this into account, including substantial extensions of the Irish AoR"?



I see merit in what you are saying Easyrider, but would that not require a significant expansion of the IAC Maritime Squadron?

Could two airframes do the job is what I'm saying?

As Dev pointed out, Nimrod was held at 2hrs notice - though probably not purely for SAR.

Of course it would be desirable, possibly essential, to expand the number of maritime patrol aircraft. But it's a chicken-and-egg situation: do you wait for extra aircraft before seeking the expansion of the Irish AoR, or do you expand the AoR and then say you need extra aircraft as a consequence?

[DeV]

The RAF maintains one Nimrod MPA at 2 hours readiness, 24 hours a day, at RAF Kinloss for SAR duties.

They were a declared asset.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/uksar.pdf

[ropebag]

I think at one stage, the RAF had 12 Nimrods each in Kinloss and St Mawgan dedicated to SAR/Maritime Patrol.
WHat cover they had in recent years however, I cannot be certain of, given the unavailability of aircraft that were in mid rebuild.

my understanding is that the cover available was somewhere between 'bog all' and 'you'll be lucky, sunshine'.

the MR2 force was so stretched - it was used in Afghanistan, IO/Horn of Africa, and it had the SSBN fleet protection role - and all the while aircraft were being taken out of service to be fitted with bits and bobs to allow it to further undertake the R1 role, that i got the view that any aircraft that was available in the UK was so by accident or happy co-incidence. i accept fully that the MCA says that one aircraft was declared to UK SAR at all times, but i just don't believe that the Nimrod MR2 fleet was big enough to undertake all the mil committments, the training, the aircraft re-fits and to have a 1 aircraft, 24hr SAR capability as well.

i wouldn't be that surprised to see P-8's at some stage in the future - probably when politicians discover that they are sending a £1.5bn, 65,000 ton carrier into a war zone with 40 year old ASW Frigates as its defence, or when Prince William ditches 300 miles west of Donegal - but its going to be too late then.

[Goldie fish]

UK without surveillance aircraft as Russians call



By David Maddox
Published on Wednesday 14 December 2011 00:00



THE appearance of a Russian navy battlegroup off the coast of Scotland last night raised fresh concerns over the UK government’s decision not to have any surveillance aircraft.


Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources told The Scotsman that a Type 42 destroyer, HMS York, had to be despatched from Portsmouth to shadow the group of Russian ships, 25 miles off the coast of Moray.

The battlegroup, headed by the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, was understood to be sheltering from extreme weather conditions just outside UK territorial waters, but inside its exclusive economic zone.

In the past, a Nimrod aircraft would have flown from RAF Kinloss in Moray to observe the group. However, because the replacement Nimrods were cancelled and Kinloss was closed in the strategic defence and security review last year, the UK has had no surveillance available.

One of the greatest concerns about the loss of surveillance aircraft was the protection of the northern passages.

It is understood this Russian battlegroup was heading for manoeuvres in the Mediterranean, stopping at Beirut, Genoa and Cyprus en route.

Last night, SNP Moray MP and defence spokesman Angus Robertson said: “It is entirely normal for Russian and other navies to lay up to avoid extreme weather conditions.

“However, it does seem tremendously symbolic that within months of military cuts in Scotland, the Royal Navy needs to deploy a conventional vessel from the south coast of England because there are no maritime patrol aircraft based in Scotland.”

The MoD does not comment on military manoeuvres.

However, the department has said that Nimrod was cancelled because of safety concerns and cost.

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/uk_without_surveillance_aircraft_as_russians_call_1_2006847#.TukGoJTW4i4.twitter

[jack nastyface]

UK without surveillance aircraft as Russians call



By David Maddox
Published on Wednesday 14 December 2011 00:00

Hope she dosn't pump another load of waste oil outboard this time.



THE appearance of a Russian navy battlegroup off the coast of Scotland last night raised fresh concerns over the UK government’s decision not to have any surveillance aircraft.


Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources told The Scotsman that a Type 42 destroyer, HMS York, had to be despatched from Portsmouth to shadow the group of Russian ships, 25 miles off the coast of Moray.

The battlegroup, headed by the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, was understood to be sheltering from extreme weather conditions just outside UK territorial waters, but inside its exclusive economic zone.

In the past, a Nimrod aircraft would have flown from RAF Kinloss in Moray to observe the group. However, because the replacement Nimrods were cancelled and Kinloss was closed in the strategic defence and security review last year, the UK has had no surveillance available.

One of the greatest concerns about the loss of surveillance aircraft was the protection of the northern passages.

It is understood this Russian battlegroup was heading for manoeuvres in the Mediterranean, stopping at Beirut, Genoa and Cyprus en route.

Last night, SNP Moray MP and defence spokesman Angus Robertson said: “It is entirely normal for Russian and other navies to lay up to avoid extreme weather conditions.

“However, it does seem tremendously symbolic that within months of military cuts in Scotland, the Royal Navy needs to deploy a conventional vessel from the south coast of England because there are no maritime patrol aircraft based in Scotland.”

The MoD does not comment on military manoeuvres.

However, the department has said that Nimrod was cancelled because of safety concerns and cost.


http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...JTW4i4.twitter

[spider]

An update from the BBC re the Swanland incident -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-20591697