Sunday Times Article

[Big Al]

Why not incorporate the helicopters and maybe the pc-9's into the army and outsource the base maintenance and maybe some of the basic flying training and start using them to properly support the army and start sending them abroad. The casa's could be incorporated into the navy and the same thing done with the base maintenance and basic flying training. Scrap the glorified taxi's for government. Outsource the air ambulance and set up a dedicated air ambulance service. If all this was done you would also save on pay because presumably there would be no need for the higher ranks of the air corps anymore.

Are you mad? 1 less General vacancy if they do that, not to mention the one already lost going from 3 to 2 bdes...

[hippyros]

If they do get rid of a brigade will this mean fewer officers and an increase on general service recruits.

[goc132]

My friends don't be surprised if the following happens:

1.Eastern Brigade is stood down.
2.Air Corp brought under the NS as an Air Arm.
3.Task Force in Dublin old Eastern Brigade.
4.RDF will take a big hit (easy to implement)
5.Dept of Defence Civies stay at same level ( Turkey's don't vote for Christmas)
6.DF will be reduced further that 9,500 (government won't keep their word)
7.More Barracks will close( Kilkenny,Galway,Cathal Brugha)
8. West & South Brigades will hold out.
9.PDF will be the Guard of Honour in 2016 (RDF won't get that gig)
10.Oh! God help the Country if there is ever a National crisis as the HQ of all Services are all over the place none at hand.

[danno]

Anything is possible given that it is now trendy for Euro leaders to slash defence spending for austerity/optic purposes.

[Tadpole]

I really don't see how people are so surprised at this or sure that it's rubbish. The fact is that over years the AC tasks have diminished, not because the taskings don't exist but because the AC have been in some way or another been replaced as the provider. Considering that today's AC could have 95% of it's roles civilianised / cut it comes down purely to cost benefit analysis and I wouldn't want to be on the ACs accounting team. Nearly 800 personnel and approx 1/3 of the DF budget ( please correct if incorrect) for 20 odd aircraft, many of which arent even on out of hours call, and 6000 flight hours PA just doesnt stack up.
More Government balloon flying?

[ropebag]

...You do realise that a brigade is between 2,000 and 3,000 personnel, not the 500 that Shatter has suggested?!

is it?

really?

when you look around the world at All-Arms Bde's which are in combat you find formations that top 7,000 men - purely because the logistic and force protection footprint of 3 inf Bn's + support is no longer a total of 2500 as it was in WWII.

the harsh truth is that the fighting power of the IA is about one Bde in real world conditions, it therefore makes no sense to operate with a makey-uppy structure that would have to be binned as soon as those real world conditions materialised. far better to grip this reality and configure the force as 1 Bde + a training, logistic and administrative support group.

[Aidan]

This is undoubtedly a kite being flown by someone (probably Army - these types of rumour generally are).

But a lot of what is said in there is entirely correct - the AC have spent a lot of money in recent years, and have relatively little to show for it in terms of visible deliverables to the general public. They have made a lot of press recently about their air ambulance duties, which shows how sensitised they have become to the optical question, and the push for a return to SAR (even if limited to a small number of personnel) also shows how they feel they need another role.

As to what will happen - well, outright 'privatisation' is a non runner, but there are some services that could be outsourced relatively easily, and the AC as an organisation needs a fairly major overhaul in terms of work practices and management. Basic Flying Training could and should be put out to the private sector, along with some of the admin and maintenance of the facilities at Baldonnel (although this could actually cost money - this type of contract often does) and possibly ATC.

MATS and Maritime could be outsourced too, but there are valid reasons why both should probably remain military, not least the ability to order military personnel into harms way (Libya). The Naval Service love the idea of having their own little air arm, but that is a complete non runner. As for MATs, well, the vast majority of Ministerial travel (by far) takes place using commercial flights, but it is an absolute essential for the Govt to have at least one aircraft on call on a continual basis. We live on an Island after all - how else would the Taoiseach/Minister for Finance get to an emergency meeting in Brussels/Frankfurt/Strasbourg at very short notice?

And that leaves the helicopters, Cessna and PC-9 roles. Of all of the aircraft in service, the one that stands out as being most vulnerable to cuts are actually the PC-9s. Remove BFT, and all that is required is continuation training. Pick the right Cessna Replacement (and enough of them), and the problem is solved ...

[Tadpole]

Yes, kite, that's the word I was looking for. Where the helldid I get balloon from!

Let's be honest, the only close to military function of any kind carried out by the Air Corps are IS operations. If you really wanted to you could keep the helicopters based in the Curragh within the Army structure with civilian mx and outsource everything else.
The Air Corps have unfortunately allowed themselves navigate a path where everything else can too easily be replaced, argueeabley at lower cost with better service. It's not the first time that I've said that the Air Corps are the solution and cause of all their own problems. Question is, with the country being now run where budgets aren't just a given, they must be justified, do the Air Corps have time to provide enough reasons for continued exisitence?

[Big Al]

The future of the AC

Sell casement to O'leary and let him rebadge it Dublin South Airport,
Get rid of the MATS and Air Ambulance services to the private sector
Let the choppers fly their own aircraft from Dublin Airport
Shift the rest of the fleet off to Shannon

[balkanhawk]

I really don't see how people are so surprised at this or sure that it's rubbish. The fact is that over years the AC tasks have diminished, not because the taskings don't exist but because the AC have been in some way or another been replaced as the provider. Considering that today's AC could have 95% of it's roles civilianised / cut it comes down purely to cost benefit analysis and I wouldn't want to be on the ACs accounting team. Nearly 800 personnel and approx 1/3 of the DF budget ( please correct if incorrect) for 20 odd aircraft, many of which arent even on out of hours call, and 6000 flight hours PA just doesnt stack up.
More Government balloon flying?

I just had a look at the DF annual report for 2010 (Annual Report 2010 p.53) and it gives a breakdown of the various budgets with the DF. The air corps section of budget accounted for €17m which is 2.3% of the defence vote. This only relates to aircraft specific items by the looks of it and does not include pay, barracks, admin etc. It is actually less than half of the NS (€37 million) budget.

I read on the air corps facebook page that there is a fixed wing and helicopter crew on standby 365 days a year for air ambulance. This must be a new development

The Air Corps have fixed wing and rotary wing crews on standby for emergency air ambulances 365 day a year - today's crew were on standby since 09.00 am on Christmas Day.

[Tadpole]

I just had a look at the DF annual report for 2010 (Annual Report 2010 p.53) and it gives a breakdown of the various budgets with the DF. The air corps section of budget accounted for €17m which is 2.3% of the defence vote. This only relates to aircraft specific items by the looks of it and does not include pay, barracks, admin etc. It is actually less than half of the NS (€37 million) budget

So 2.3% of the DF budget but this part is only a tiny percentage of running the Air Corps. For example:

1. Nearly 800 staff with a high percentage of Officers and nearly all personnel on Tech pay of some sort.
2. Airfield infrastructure
3. Navaids
4. Hanger maintenance including heating and lighting
5. Fire service related costs, vehicles etc.
6. Motor pool
7. Admin costs
8. Medical costs
9. Aircraft purchase payments
10. Power by the hour, parts tech support etc if not in the €17m above
11. Fuel, if not included above
12. Fuel installation including fuel farm maintenance and bowser operations.

Thats only the start. The prob with the Air Corps is that most of its costs are dumped in with the full DF vote which makes it very hard for outsiders to see what is and isnt Air Corps specific but believe me, its a hell of a lot more then €17m

[Mabel]

"MATS and Maritime could be outsourced too, but there are valid reasons why both should probably remain military, not least the ability to order military personnel into harms way (Libya)."

Or hover above a moving ship/vehicle/military convoy while the Wing jump off/fastrope/shoot...

[balkanhawk]

1. Nearly 800 staff with a high percentage of Officers and nearly all personnel on Tech pay of some sort.

Don't forget that they are 800 members of the defence forces the same as the 900 odd naval personnel. Skilled personnel leave and use their skills in the civilian world. Pilots, technicians, air traffic control, fire etc are all in demand.

2. Airfield infrastructure

Do you not think having a military airfield on the outskirts of the capital is a strategic asset? same as having a large barrack (mckee) in the city or a naval port.

3. Navaids

Chump change.

4. Hanger maintenance including heating and lighting

Hangar maintenance is the same as other large warehouse buildings in the defence forces. No big money.

5. Fire service related costs, vehicles etc.

Could be civilianised but it is a good skill for the defence forces to maintain. Is there still a fire crew in the curragh?

6. Motor pool

Cheaper than flying everyone around in helicopters and government jets!

7. Admin costs

Costs of running a corps.

8. Medical costs

Costs of running a corps.

9. Aircraft purchase payments

None purchased in a few years and no plans to purchase any i would guess.

10. Power by the hour, parts tech support etc if not in the €17m above

I would say that it all comes under that budget heading as it relates to aircraft.

11. Fuel, if not included above

States in the reports that fuel is included. Im afraid you need fuel to get moving for any vehicle!

12. Fuel installation including fuel farm maintenance and bowser operations.

Its a fuel farm not a NASA facility!!

The budget clearly states the specific aircraft section. Seems quite clear to me. The 1/3 you of the defence forces budget that you alluded too is way off. €300 odd million compared to €17 million or even €34 million if you double it. Think of it as a barracks that happens to have aircraft, hangars and a couple of runways instead of an airport with a load of military stuff in it.

Looks like the air corps is keeping its head down while the army is being slashed by the spending review. 2011 was a good year for the air corps with a number of high profile missions carried out (according to the press office). Im sure there are efficiencies to be made but to me it looks like they are doing MORE with LESS to use that old phrase.

[Tadpole]

Balkanhawk,
Your are missing the point. If the AC roles are civilianised you don't need:

The 800 staff, an airfield dedicated to the AC, 20+ aircraft which in general are under utilized and bar 1 aircraft not on 24/7 call, ATC, firecrews and equipment, fuel farms, hangers etc and all the on going upkeep of the infrastructure. Not only that if you sell off all the assets it would probably pay for all the civilian operations for a number of years. After that, yes you will have to pay but if the service provided to the State is the same or better with a lower cost then it makes sense.
If however the AC had steered down a military route and dedicated themselves to supporting the Army / Navy properly rather then chasing home based civilian roles then we wouldn't even be having this discussion as they would be irreplaceable, but they didnt.

[Truck Driver]

My friends don't be surprised if the following happens:

1.Eastern Brigade is stood down.
2.Air Corp brought under the NS as an Air Arm.
3.Task Force in Dublin old Eastern Brigade.
4.RDF will take a big hit (easy to implement)
5.Dept of Defence Civies stay at same level ( Turkey's don't vote for Christmas)
6.DF will be reduced further that 9,500 (government won't keep their word)
7.More Barracks will close( Kilkenny,Galway,Cathal Brugha)
8. West & South Brigades will hold out.
9.PDF will be the Guard of Honour in 2016 (RDF won't get that gig)
10.Oh! God help the Country if there is ever a National crisis as the HQ of all Services are all over the place none at hand.

i think you mean ALL Bdes will be stood down and 2 new Bde formations will be implemented in their place ?

Not sure about Points 2 and 3
Point 4 - bye bye units in non manned posts, is my guess
Point 5 - Government dictates staffing levels, I thought ?
Point 7 - possibly
Point 9 - probably... :(