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  1. #1326
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    The Air Corps needs to be kept separate from SAR work because of all of that mentioned but also because we must never allow the lines of division between a Coast Guard and a functioning branch of the DF to be clouded again.

    For the same reason we need a dedicated HEMS rather than the AC providing a role that has been outsourced else where just as the SAR service has.
    100% agree.

    Even if only just to keep the mindset of the AC's people on being members of the Military as opposed to being Emergency service workers.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  3. #1327
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    100% agree here. Military have no business doing a civilian job; if they want to play at airlifting wounded, then learn how to do CSAR and get some real-world practise in doing so, wherever Irish troops are stationed abroad.

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  5. #1328
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    You need to take care with maximum values for helicopters more so than with aircraft.
    The AW139 does have a maximum range of 573nm, but that is with maximum fuel, aux fuel, no reserves and 2 crew. Given that the typical crew will be 4 and that the A/C will have to pick-up passengers the AW139 would struggle to meet the 200nm range and 45min station time.
    Standard fuel is 1568lt (1254kg) and aux is 500lt (400kg), 2 rescue crew are 200kg and you can easily add another 100kg for SAR kit. Given that the AW139 only has a payload capacity of 2200kg, this does not give you much capacity to pick people up. The additional 300kg from the crew and kit will have already reduced your range as the A/C will have burned more on the outbound leg making the 573nm impossible to reach. And remember the aircraft will have more weight onboard for the return legs once it has picked up those that had to be rescued. Factor in head-wind and reserves and you soon see the true range drop dramatically.

    The question: can the AW139 make the tender requirement and I believe the answer is yes. for the Numbers:

    Approx BOW of UK AW139 AWSAR is 4800kg giving a useful load of 2200kg with MAUW of 7000kg. With Max fuel of 1650kg gives it an endurance of 4hrs 35 to tanks dry, best range cruise of 140KIAS and fuel burn of 375kg/h

    4800 + 1650= 6450kg + 550kg for your crew and equipment brings you to MAUW

    Let assume mission with 20knot head wind at 200NM

    200nm at 120GS = 100min = 560kg fuel - AUW (assuming you lifted at 7000kg) at 200nm = AUW 6440kg which is plenty of lift capacity.

    45 min at location = 300kg

    200nm home at 160GS = 75min = 470kg

    total mission fuel = 1330kg

    giving a landing reserve of 320kg = 50min

    That's with your head wind factored in!

    My humble opinion it makes the tender requirement...

  6. #1329
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And how many casualties can it lift at that range compared to S92?

    Why is a medium lift needed in the Dublin region? A lot of ferries and aircraft carry a lot of people across the Irish Sea (and beyond)
    The problem is the AC can’t retain sufficient pilots or techs.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...39705?mode=amp
    The Dublin ferries argument again.... how many ferries have sunk in Dublin.... Zero... Many many people get rescued off Dublin mountains or along the shore line. What did UK SAR have in Portland for years on the busiest shipping channel in the World.... 139. If a ferry sinks or hits rocks it's all hands on deck (pun intended), in any case the 139 could be considered a better platform for recovering casualties. It could winch lower and therefore faster (rotor downwash of the s92) and I'm guessing you could fit more 139s winching at the same time over the ship than S92s. If the people end up in the water more will be picked up by the RNLI than helicopters!

    Agreed, the AC needs to re org to meet any challenge. Maybe thats the problem, if there's no challenge there is no reason for people to stay.

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  8. #1330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heligun View Post
    The question: can the AW139 make the tender requirement and I believe the answer is yes. for the Numbers:

    Approx BOW of UK AW139 AWSAR is 4800kg giving a useful load of 2200kg with MAUW of 7000kg. With Max fuel of 1650kg gives it an endurance of 4hrs 35 to tanks dry, best range cruise of 140KIAS and fuel burn of 375kg/h

    4800 + 1650= 6450kg + 550kg for your crew and equipment brings you to MAUW

    Let assume mission with 20knot head wind at 200NM

    200nm at 120GS = 100min = 560kg fuel - AUW (assuming you lifted at 7000kg) at 200nm = AUW 6440kg which is plenty of lift capacity.

    45 min at location = 300kg

    200nm home at 160GS = 75min = 470kg

    total mission fuel = 1330kg

    giving a landing reserve of 320kg = 50min

    That's with your head wind factored in!

    My humble opinion it makes the tender requirement...
    What it says on the brochure and real world conditions are not always the same.
    Don't forget after you transit 200km you have to spend some time on scene locating the casualty, establishing safe location to send aircrew down to assess casualty, treat on scene and prep for extraction. Then bring casualty (or casualties, and their extra weight and its impact on your flight profile) to suitable hospital, not necessaraly located near where you departed from. A recent casualty off the south coast had to be brought to Hospital in NI.

    In the experience of this state, having an aircraft that "just" meets the requirements is a tragedy waiting to happen.
    The S92 is a good SAR aircraft. Its downwash is not as harsh as its peers, the EHI01 or the Airbus H225M. The problem is down to corner cutting by CHC.
    You want an aircraft with serious legs to operate in the Eastern Atlantic. You also want a cabin big enough to carry more than one casualty, in a stretcher if necessary. The AW139 just does not cut it. Fine for plucking swimmers in trouble from the cliffs and beaches in summer. No good for taking the crew off a cargo ship in a winter storm off the kerry coast.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  10. #1331
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heligun View Post
    The Dublin ferries argument again.... how many ferries have sunk in Dublin.... Zero... Many many people get rescued off Dublin mountains or along the shore line. What did UK SAR have in Portland for years on the busiest shipping channel in the World.... 139. If a ferry sinks or hits rocks it's all hands on deck (pun intended), in any case the 139 could be considered a better platform for recovering casualties. It could winch lower and therefore faster (rotor downwash of the s92) and I'm guessing you could fit more 139s winching at the same time over the ship than S92s. If the people end up in the water more will be picked up by the RNLI than helicopters!

    Agreed, the AC needs to re org to meet any challenge. Maybe thats the problem, if there's no challenge there is no reason for people to stay.
    Not interested in the Dublin Bay ferries issue, the reality being the fisherman 200 miles off the west coats or down in the celtic sea who has had an accident and needs to be lifted.These are the bread and butter jobs of the CG, the ones they are available for 24/7 without having to be concerned about availability of crew,s servicing or even ATC.

    We have what we have because it was decided the AC were not the agency suitable to provide the states response to SAR requirement.

    It shouldn't even be a debate at this stage !
    Time for another break I think......

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  12. #1332
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    Apologies if this has been discussed in this thread already...is there any possibility that an organisation like this can get of the ground south of the border?

    And leave the military EC135's for military stuff...whats your thoughts?

    http://www.airambulanceni.org/

    Lots of people said it couldn't be done here...its happened...X2 leased airframes with one available at any time... and making a huge difference.

    Takes a Doctor straight to the patient...all for 2 million pounds a year.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  14. #1333
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    Apologies if this has been discussed in this thread already...is there any possibility that an organisation like this can get of the ground south of the border?

    And leave the military EC135's for military stuff...whats your thoughts?

    http://www.airambulanceni.org/

    Lots of people said it couldn't be done here...its happened...X2 leased airframes with one available at any time... and making a huge difference.

    Takes a Doctor straight to the patient...all for 2 million pounds a year.
    Something like this ??

    http://communityairambulance.ie

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  16. #1334
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    Apart from a few photo shoots using the Heli that services the Kinsale rigs, the southern operation has yet to commence operations.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  18. #1335
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Something like this ??

    http://communityairambulance.ie
    Yes something like that.

    If it gets going (sadly it took the death of a high profile Dr in motor cycling circles to raise its profile here) can the military helicopters go back to doing military stuff?
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  20. #1336
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    Dr. John. Legend in so many ways. A huge loss to the motorcycling world he was. Delta 7 RIP.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  22. #1337
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Reading in one of the red tops about a diver who had to be flown to norn iron to a hyperbaric chamber by the coast guard as there was no staff to run the one in uchg...do the NS not have one? I thought they've one on a truck? The Diver got into trouble after diving in cork.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  23. #1338
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    Reading in one of the red tops about a diver who had to be flown to norn iron to a hyperbaric chamber by the coast guard as there was no staff to run the one in uchg...do the NS not have one? I thought they've one on a truck? The Diver got into trouble after diving in cork.
    they do but not sure if it would suit every situation

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