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  • This air ambo issue kicked off due to the transplant debacle which made the matter topical.So far the official response is beckoning at E135 response and even if Bond got the nod the operators unlikely to be able to get the casualty to London etc in one hop.Helis appear to be only part of the solution to the defecits re transplants etc/

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    • Tadpole

      Unfortunatly the way things are going there may not even be any money left to pay for fuel to run the AC aircraft. Maybe we should follow the Greeks lead and keep spending, that way we might get a big debt writeoff.

      I sunderstood the limit is 500ft for NVG use in the air amb/hems role, dont know about the police role but im sure someone out there knows the right answer or it might be clarified in the EASA AMc's. Since the AC have experience in the use NVG's perhaps one of the guys that fly with them could tell us what their limits are?

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      • Originally posted by Helihead View Post
        A new national helicopter ambulance service provided by the Air Corps and the HSE will be used to fly patients to hospital from car crashes and other incidents when time is critical in getting a patient urgent medical treatment.
        Do we know that for sure?


        Originally posted by DirkinDaHerc View Post
        day time ops with machines that are capable of 24/7
        What is the international norm for HEMS ops at night?
        Not done from the scene, normally inter-hospital transfers only



        Originally posted by Dan The Man View Post
        I would not be at all surprised if half the 139 fleet is disposed of in the not too distant future along with the agreement that is in place.
        What makes you think that?

        Originally posted by loki View Post
        A lot of talk about EASA and Jarops and how the air corps would have to stick to their regulations... what would this mean for their operations?? Are their helicopters not capable of meeting civilian standards? and if not why not?
        They meet civilian standards!

        Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
        HEMS and Air Ambulance are two distinctly separate roles.
        Not according to JAROPS as was pointed out to me!

        Originally posted by fenestron View Post
        Since they dont have any real military role to do with the 5 139's they have sitting in Bal, they do air ambulance in order to make it look like there is a reason for having them now that they are not kept busy flying ministers around anymore. Of course they have done it for years but they seem to be more interested in doing it now hence the 4 sets of crews on standby.
        The military role is interoperability training with the army for overseas which the AC do, the AC has been doing air ambulance since around 1963 since the Alouettes were purchased. VIP transport is still undertake.

        When that leitrim girl needed to go to the uk for a liver transplant it was a pity the 139's they have couldnt fly to the UK at night
        It was a weekend at night (if memory serves). The duty aircraft was already on an air ambulance tasking. Also if I remember correctly the AW139 doesn't have the range without having to stop and refuel.

        must have been cheap knock offs that were made in china cos the ones Agusta make dont seem to have a problem doing it when operated by the civilian community.
        It is a worldwide Agusta Westland problem!

        They also take them out for a bit of fire fighting now and again. Next they will want to do the Light house contract, powerline inspections and sure why not the gas pipeline patrol as well. They wouldnt need an AOC or oversight from the IAA for any of those jobs either would they?
        Sure maybe they could do scheduled flights between Ireland and europe and go into competition with Ryanair, they wouldnt need an AOC for that either cause their military and EASA/JAA rules dont apply to them. I wonder how much they would charge?
        The AC undertake tasks as ordered by Government.

        Originally posted by fenestron View Post
        also with the number of cash in transit robberies that may be something that could do with some aerial support.
        Already done


        Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
        Jesus Christ nobody is saying they wont. They will operate to an equivalent standard but they wont be regulated under EASA/JAR. Like every other military in Europe.
        +1 Basically they follow the rules even though they don't have to!

        Originally posted by Vamp369 View Post
        I have to ask, will there be training given to the emergency services personnel in regards landing a heli at a place that isn't a heli pad? Any time I've seen helis landing in the DF there is always a heli drills qualified fella there to do the job. Fair enough if theres a big open field next to the road but thats not always the case.
        One would assume so but if this is replacing an ambulance who do you train?

        IRCG rescue teams, mountain rescue etc receive training

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        • Originally Posted by Dan The Man
          I would not be at all surprised if half the 139 fleet is disposed of in the not too distant future along with the agreement that is in place.

          Originally Posted by Dev
          What makes you think that?

          1. Cannot perform overseas UN duties.
          2. MATS will be privatised.
          3. HEMS will be privatised.

          Will be difficult to justify their existence going forward with the planned cutbacks.....but i am sure Minister Shatter will note this in his upcoming Defence review

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          • Just a point Tadpole. Are police ops not JAR OPS exempt? Along with SAR and Fire Fighting if I remember correctly.
            Good point Jetjock, Ill see what is in the normal regs!

            This air ambo issue kicked off due to the transplant debacle which made the matter topical
            No this topic has been kicked of by protests over the closure of A&Es and hence the need to reduce patient transport time to A&Es further away.

            A new national helicopter ambulance service provided by the Air Corps and the HSE will be used to fly patients to hospital from car crashes and other incidents when time is critical in getting a patient urgent medical treatment.
            I think this quote from Helihead is actually from the paper rather then his own thoughts.

            Not according to JAROPS as was pointed out to me
            It was actually pointed out to you that while they both come under JAR OPS they are 2 distinct commercial operations with 2 distinct sets of regulations.

            What is the international norm for HEMS ops at night?
            Not done from the scene, normally inter-hospital transfers only
            Mainly due to cost and equipment, AC can do 24/7 so they should be doing 24/7. It is after all their USP.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Helihead View Post
              A new national helicopter ambulance service provided by the Air Corps and the HSE will be used to fly patients to hospital from car crashes and other incidents when time is critical in getting a patient urgent medical treatment.

              However, the new service, which will be launched after an agreement is finalised between the HSE and the Department of Defence, will not be the long sought-after HEMS (Helicopter Emergency Medical Service) air ambulance service used in almost every other EU country.

              Instead it will be a limited service using a small Air Corps EC-135 helicopter based in Custume Barracks, Athlone, to cover largely the west of Ireland.

              The service, where HSE paramedics will have the ability to call in an aeromedical mission for an ill patient who needs a speedy transfer to hospital, will not be available 24 hours a day, and it will not operate at night.

              No need for NVG's if today's Sunday Independent is to be believed.
              Just to clarify, that was a cut and paste by me from yesterday's Sunday Independent. Didn't add a link as there were other stories not connected to this on the same link.
              Last edited by Helihead; 23 January 2012, 10:50.

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              • How long before it goes AW139????

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                • Prob after the first incident that the 135 cant respond to, which in this scenario could be very soon after start up!
                  Would be interested to see the crewing. That would give a good indication as to payload available for fuel. ie

                  Single / dual pilot?
                  1 paramedic or 2?
                  Crewman?

                  Worst case dual pilot, 2 paramedics, crewman and patient. Up to six on board.
                  Mostly likely single pilot (cant see a reason for 2), 2 paramedics (min really for HEMS, pref 1 para, 1 doc), crewman (AC don't land off base without one) and patient.
                  Total 5 on board departing the scene. Heavy for a 135.

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                  • Whats the big deal with getting NVG certified on the 135? if they plan on doing something then do it f**king right.
                    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                    • Are the 139s still grounded?

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                      • The 135 in IAC operation is already NVG certified and flown with NVGs.

                        At least some of the 139s are flying but I dont know about fleet serviceability.

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                        • oh

                          so what would be the reasoning behind the not operating at night? an operational decision or not enough NVG sets?
                          "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                          "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                          • Thats what is so disappointing to me, I don't see a good reason not to.

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                            • It could have a lot to do with operational experience. Maybe 24hr when robust HEMS operating practices are in place and experience is gained.

                              As I've said repeatedly we often follow the British model and they operate HEMS daylight hours only. Im sure the result of many years experience and risk benefit analysis.

                              There seems to be 24 HEMS in some parts of Germany, but I've never seen a small field in Germany.

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                              • Ah right

                                its the pox papers, they always seem to delight in slanting a report so that it seems like we are getting a crap alternative to something.
                                "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                                "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                                Comment

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