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  • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The AC don't realistically use their pilot and tech manpower, because , like so many other militaries and govt aviation, the personnel concerned are constantly being robbed for other things or some of the people concerned don't want to continue doing it (flxing or flying) and are doing something else, especially the further up the food chain they get. As a common example, pilots are routinely rotated to ground tours and the only flying they do on a ground tour is to keep currency up. Mechs were routinely rotated/detailed to the depot to train aptces in soldiering! No airline or civvy flying organisation would tolerate routinely moving skilled people out of their prime function for years or months at a time. At least the RAF have a system of professional aircrew (pilot) called the Professional Aircrew Spine (PAS), which keeps pilots flying for as long as possible, in lieu of becoming unit commanders or groomed for promotion. It means that the system gets value for it's training dollar. In civvy street, you don't get off flying or fixing unless ill health forces you out of the cockpit or the toolbox you voluntarily go to do something else.
    Absolutely agree but the establishment isn’t high enough as it is

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
      You are also forgetting the profound difference between civil and military is rank and manpower; a civvy SAR station has a couple of pilots, a couple of mechs(one of whom is usually an avo/B2), a pair of back seaters and a storeman on a shift. All of them will routinely multi-task and will drive/cook/file paper/make tea/help with kit/carry stuff/move stuff and will freely interact with each other. A military SAR station will have much more manpower on it's establishment, all operating on a rigid, divisive rank structure and a much more expensive pay scale than is commonly realised, no cross-rank multi-tasking, no shared eating, no shared driving (in the military system, you have to have duty drivers. Pilots do not drive in the AC, EVER. This is a critical issue on a small SAR station, when all hands are needed to be able to move people and kit in the Station van, yet the AC does not allow most of it's staff to do something as simple as moving a van or a tug.), so this generates a need for duty drivers, another layer to be dealt with. In the AC, because so much is deferred to NCO rank in technical trades, you end up having Sergeant or Flight Sergeant techs being responsible on paper for doing the kind of basic tasks that a simple civvy B1 mech or B2 avo does as a matter of routine. The military stores and supply system is also ponderous and rank-heavy compared to a civvy set-up. When a paper establishment dictates that the Stores system has a CQMS as the post holder, as a minimum, then you are in trouble, whereas a civvy system just calls him (or her), "Storeman" and there are no airs and graces attached. The military system is also subject to people being posted out, going on courses, being grabbed for other duties, separate Messing, separate and inefficient Clothing supply, wildly different terms and conditions such as pay, annual leave, allowances and so on. Imagine telling a SAR guy that he can't do his shift because he has to do his Annual range practise on a wet Tuesday in January or that he is required to march down O'Connell Street in Easter and spend two weeks before that date, practising for it. That's why civvy SAR systems are efficient, because it slashes all the Military bull out of the system and people have time to think about their actual job instead of worrying about the 90% of crap that militaries regard as essential.
      Exactly my opinion, and it is not just in the AC, there is a need to get rid of a lot of 19th century BS and drag the force into the modern 21st! It might actually go a long way to helping with retention especially for technical skills. A lot of the BS was to cope with the level of education (or lack of it) in the 19th century and the "officer" class expectations at that time. Not something a modern defence force needs.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Absolutely agree but the establishment isn’t high enough as it is
        Increasing establishment is not the only answer, with over 700 the AC should be able to cope much better than it is but it needs to accept that thing cannot continue the same as before. The "unionised" system has to go and go fast, people have to multi-task, BS needs to be eliminated where ever it is found.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          Increasing establishment is not the only answer, with over 700 the AC should be able to cope much better than it is but it needs to accept that thing cannot continue the same as before. The "unionised" system has to go and go fast, people have to multi-task, BS needs to be eliminated where ever it is found.
          Agreed but the establishment isn’t high enough and strength is no where near high enough

          Comment


          • As an aside things aren’t looking good for Waterford Airport-- Where has this been stated? Public or Rumour mil.
            While there is no scheduled traffic the airport remains fully functional and provides 24hrs cover for the Coast Guard Air Assets based on site. Probably the only reason the location continues to function at all apart from some air taxi traffic.


            The Air Corps needs to be kept separate from SAR work because of all of that mentioned but also because we must never allow the lines of division between a Coast Guard and a functioning branch of the DF to be clouded again.

            For the same reason we need a dedicated HEMS rather than the AC providing a role that has been outsourced else where just as the SAR service has.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

            Comment


            • The Air Corps needs to be kept separate from SAR work because of all of that mentioned but also because we must never allow the lines of division between a Coast Guard and a functioning branch of the DF to be clouded again.

              For the same reason we need a dedicated HEMS rather than the AC providing a role that has been outsourced else where just as the SAR service has.
              100% agree.

              Even if only just to keep the mindset of the AC's people on being members of the Military as opposed to being Emergency service workers.
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

              Comment


              • 100% agree here. Military have no business doing a civilian job; if they want to play at airlifting wounded, then learn how to do CSAR and get some real-world practise in doing so, wherever Irish troops are stationed abroad.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  You need to take care with maximum values for helicopters more so than with aircraft.
                  The AW139 does have a maximum range of 573nm, but that is with maximum fuel, aux fuel, no reserves and 2 crew. Given that the typical crew will be 4 and that the A/C will have to pick-up passengers the AW139 would struggle to meet the 200nm range and 45min station time.
                  Standard fuel is 1568lt (1254kg) and aux is 500lt (400kg), 2 rescue crew are 200kg and you can easily add another 100kg for SAR kit. Given that the AW139 only has a payload capacity of 2200kg, this does not give you much capacity to pick people up. The additional 300kg from the crew and kit will have already reduced your range as the A/C will have burned more on the outbound leg making the 573nm impossible to reach. And remember the aircraft will have more weight onboard for the return legs once it has picked up those that had to be rescued. Factor in head-wind and reserves and you soon see the true range drop dramatically.

                  The question: can the AW139 make the tender requirement and I believe the answer is yes. for the Numbers:

                  Approx BOW of UK AW139 AWSAR is 4800kg giving a useful load of 2200kg with MAUW of 7000kg. With Max fuel of 1650kg gives it an endurance of 4hrs 35 to tanks dry, best range cruise of 140KIAS and fuel burn of 375kg/h

                  4800 + 1650= 6450kg + 550kg for your crew and equipment brings you to MAUW

                  Let assume mission with 20knot head wind at 200NM

                  200nm at 120GS = 100min = 560kg fuel - AUW (assuming you lifted at 7000kg) at 200nm = AUW 6440kg which is plenty of lift capacity.

                  45 min at location = 300kg

                  200nm home at 160GS = 75min = 470kg

                  total mission fuel = 1330kg

                  giving a landing reserve of 320kg = 50min

                  That's with your head wind factored in!

                  My humble opinion it makes the tender requirement...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    And how many casualties can it lift at that range compared to S92?

                    Why is a medium lift needed in the Dublin region? A lot of ferries and aircraft carry a lot of people across the Irish Sea (and beyond)
                    The problem is the AC can’t retain sufficient pilots or techs.

                    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...39705?mode=amp
                    The Dublin ferries argument again.... how many ferries have sunk in Dublin.... Zero... Many many people get rescued off Dublin mountains or along the shore line. What did UK SAR have in Portland for years on the busiest shipping channel in the World.... 139. If a ferry sinks or hits rocks it's all hands on deck (pun intended), in any case the 139 could be considered a better platform for recovering casualties. It could winch lower and therefore faster (rotor downwash of the s92) and I'm guessing you could fit more 139s winching at the same time over the ship than S92s. If the people end up in the water more will be picked up by the RNLI than helicopters!

                    Agreed, the AC needs to re org to meet any challenge. Maybe thats the problem, if there's no challenge there is no reason for people to stay.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Heligun View Post
                      The question: can the AW139 make the tender requirement and I believe the answer is yes. for the Numbers:

                      Approx BOW of UK AW139 AWSAR is 4800kg giving a useful load of 2200kg with MAUW of 7000kg. With Max fuel of 1650kg gives it an endurance of 4hrs 35 to tanks dry, best range cruise of 140KIAS and fuel burn of 375kg/h

                      4800 + 1650= 6450kg + 550kg for your crew and equipment brings you to MAUW

                      Let assume mission with 20knot head wind at 200NM

                      200nm at 120GS = 100min = 560kg fuel - AUW (assuming you lifted at 7000kg) at 200nm = AUW 6440kg which is plenty of lift capacity.

                      45 min at location = 300kg

                      200nm home at 160GS = 75min = 470kg

                      total mission fuel = 1330kg

                      giving a landing reserve of 320kg = 50min

                      That's with your head wind factored in!

                      My humble opinion it makes the tender requirement...
                      What it says on the brochure and real world conditions are not always the same.
                      Don't forget after you transit 200km you have to spend some time on scene locating the casualty, establishing safe location to send aircrew down to assess casualty, treat on scene and prep for extraction. Then bring casualty (or casualties, and their extra weight and its impact on your flight profile) to suitable hospital, not necessaraly located near where you departed from. A recent casualty off the south coast had to be brought to Hospital in NI.

                      In the experience of this state, having an aircraft that "just" meets the requirements is a tragedy waiting to happen.
                      The S92 is a good SAR aircraft. Its downwash is not as harsh as its peers, the EHI01 or the Airbus H225M. The problem is down to corner cutting by CHC.
                      You want an aircraft with serious legs to operate in the Eastern Atlantic. You also want a cabin big enough to carry more than one casualty, in a stretcher if necessary. The AW139 just does not cut it. Fine for plucking swimmers in trouble from the cliffs and beaches in summer. No good for taking the crew off a cargo ship in a winter storm off the kerry coast.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Heligun View Post
                        The Dublin ferries argument again.... how many ferries have sunk in Dublin.... Zero... Many many people get rescued off Dublin mountains or along the shore line. What did UK SAR have in Portland for years on the busiest shipping channel in the World.... 139. If a ferry sinks or hits rocks it's all hands on deck (pun intended), in any case the 139 could be considered a better platform for recovering casualties. It could winch lower and therefore faster (rotor downwash of the s92) and I'm guessing you could fit more 139s winching at the same time over the ship than S92s. If the people end up in the water more will be picked up by the RNLI than helicopters!

                        Agreed, the AC needs to re org to meet any challenge. Maybe thats the problem, if there's no challenge there is no reason for people to stay.
                        Not interested in the Dublin Bay ferries issue, the reality being the fisherman 200 miles off the west coats or down in the celtic sea who has had an accident and needs to be lifted.These are the bread and butter jobs of the CG, the ones they are available for 24/7 without having to be concerned about availability of crew,s servicing or even ATC.

                        We have what we have because it was decided the AC were not the agency suitable to provide the states response to SAR requirement.

                        It shouldn't even be a debate at this stage !
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • Apologies if this has been discussed in this thread already...is there any possibility that an organisation like this can get of the ground south of the border?

                          And leave the military EC135's for military stuff...whats your thoughts?



                          Lots of people said it couldn't be done here...its happened...X2 leased airframes with one available at any time... and making a huge difference.

                          Takes a Doctor straight to the patient...all for 2 million pounds a year.
                          'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by spider View Post
                            Apologies if this has been discussed in this thread already...is there any possibility that an organisation like this can get of the ground south of the border?

                            And leave the military EC135's for military stuff...whats your thoughts?



                            Lots of people said it couldn't be done here...its happened...X2 leased airframes with one available at any time... and making a huge difference.

                            Takes a Doctor straight to the patient...all for 2 million pounds a year.
                            Something like this ??

                            Empowering Communities To Save Lives Get Involved Services Donate Get Involved Services Donate Monthly Responder Statistics 1 Active Locations 0 Hours on Scene 0 Counties Tasked 0 Medical 0 Trauma 0 % Cardiac Arrest 0 % Road Traffic Collisions 0 % Trauma 0 % Medical 0 % Cardiovascular Fundraise For Us Start Fundraising Now Corporate

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                            • Apart from a few photo shoots using the Heli that services the Kinsale rigs, the southern operation has yet to commence operations.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Something like this ??

                                http://communityairambulance.ie
                                Yes something like that.

                                If it gets going (sadly it took the death of a high profile Dr in motor cycling circles to raise its profile here) can the military helicopters go back to doing military stuff?
                                'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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