Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner
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Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View PostYou are also forgetting the profound difference between civil and military is rank and manpower; a civvy SAR station has a couple of pilots, a couple of mechs(one of whom is usually an avo/B2), a pair of back seaters and a storeman on a shift. All of them will routinely multi-task and will drive/cook/file paper/make tea/help with kit/carry stuff/move stuff and will freely interact with each other. A military SAR station will have much more manpower on it's establishment, all operating on a rigid, divisive rank structure and a much more expensive pay scale than is commonly realised, no cross-rank multi-tasking, no shared eating, no shared driving (in the military system, you have to have duty drivers. Pilots do not drive in the AC, EVER. This is a critical issue on a small SAR station, when all hands are needed to be able to move people and kit in the Station van, yet the AC does not allow most of it's staff to do something as simple as moving a van or a tug.), so this generates a need for duty drivers, another layer to be dealt with. In the AC, because so much is deferred to NCO rank in technical trades, you end up having Sergeant or Flight Sergeant techs being responsible on paper for doing the kind of basic tasks that a simple civvy B1 mech or B2 avo does as a matter of routine. The military stores and supply system is also ponderous and rank-heavy compared to a civvy set-up. When a paper establishment dictates that the Stores system has a CQMS as the post holder, as a minimum, then you are in trouble, whereas a civvy system just calls him (or her), "Storeman" and there are no airs and graces attached. The military system is also subject to people being posted out, going on courses, being grabbed for other duties, separate Messing, separate and inefficient Clothing supply, wildly different terms and conditions such as pay, annual leave, allowances and so on. Imagine telling a SAR guy that he can't do his shift because he has to do his Annual range practise on a wet Tuesday in January or that he is required to march down O'Connell Street in Easter and spend two weeks before that date, practising for it. That's why civvy SAR systems are efficient, because it slashes all the Military bull out of the system and people have time to think about their actual job instead of worrying about the 90% of crap that militaries regard as essential.
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Originally posted by DeV View PostAbsolutely agree but the establishment isn’t high enough as it is
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostIncreasing establishment is not the only answer, with over 700 the AC should be able to cope much better than it is but it needs to accept that thing cannot continue the same as before. The "unionised" system has to go and go fast, people have to multi-task, BS needs to be eliminated where ever it is found.
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As an aside things aren’t looking good for Waterford Airport-- Where has this been stated? Public or Rumour mil.
The Air Corps needs to be kept separate from SAR work because of all of that mentioned but also because we must never allow the lines of division between a Coast Guard and a functioning branch of the DF to be clouded again.
For the same reason we need a dedicated HEMS rather than the AC providing a role that has been outsourced else where just as the SAR service has.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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The Air Corps needs to be kept separate from SAR work because of all of that mentioned but also because we must never allow the lines of division between a Coast Guard and a functioning branch of the DF to be clouded again.
For the same reason we need a dedicated HEMS rather than the AC providing a role that has been outsourced else where just as the SAR service has.
Even if only just to keep the mindset of the AC's people on being members of the Military as opposed to being Emergency service workers."Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostYou need to take care with maximum values for helicopters more so than with aircraft.
The AW139 does have a maximum range of 573nm, but that is with maximum fuel, aux fuel, no reserves and 2 crew. Given that the typical crew will be 4 and that the A/C will have to pick-up passengers the AW139 would struggle to meet the 200nm range and 45min station time.
Standard fuel is 1568lt (1254kg) and aux is 500lt (400kg), 2 rescue crew are 200kg and you can easily add another 100kg for SAR kit. Given that the AW139 only has a payload capacity of 2200kg, this does not give you much capacity to pick people up. The additional 300kg from the crew and kit will have already reduced your range as the A/C will have burned more on the outbound leg making the 573nm impossible to reach. And remember the aircraft will have more weight onboard for the return legs once it has picked up those that had to be rescued. Factor in head-wind and reserves and you soon see the true range drop dramatically.
The question: can the AW139 make the tender requirement and I believe the answer is yes. for the Numbers:
Approx BOW of UK AW139 AWSAR is 4800kg giving a useful load of 2200kg with MAUW of 7000kg. With Max fuel of 1650kg gives it an endurance of 4hrs 35 to tanks dry, best range cruise of 140KIAS and fuel burn of 375kg/h
4800 + 1650= 6450kg + 550kg for your crew and equipment brings you to MAUW
Let assume mission with 20knot head wind at 200NM
200nm at 120GS = 100min = 560kg fuel - AUW (assuming you lifted at 7000kg) at 200nm = AUW 6440kg which is plenty of lift capacity.
45 min at location = 300kg
200nm home at 160GS = 75min = 470kg
total mission fuel = 1330kg
giving a landing reserve of 320kg = 50min
That's with your head wind factored in!
My humble opinion it makes the tender requirement...
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Originally posted by DeV View PostAnd how many casualties can it lift at that range compared to S92?
Why is a medium lift needed in the Dublin region? A lot of ferries and aircraft carry a lot of people across the Irish Sea (and beyond)
The problem is the AC can’t retain sufficient pilots or techs.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...39705?mode=amp
Agreed, the AC needs to re org to meet any challenge. Maybe thats the problem, if there's no challenge there is no reason for people to stay.
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Originally posted by Heligun View PostThe question: can the AW139 make the tender requirement and I believe the answer is yes. for the Numbers:
Approx BOW of UK AW139 AWSAR is 4800kg giving a useful load of 2200kg with MAUW of 7000kg. With Max fuel of 1650kg gives it an endurance of 4hrs 35 to tanks dry, best range cruise of 140KIAS and fuel burn of 375kg/h
4800 + 1650= 6450kg + 550kg for your crew and equipment brings you to MAUW
Let assume mission with 20knot head wind at 200NM
200nm at 120GS = 100min = 560kg fuel - AUW (assuming you lifted at 7000kg) at 200nm = AUW 6440kg which is plenty of lift capacity.
45 min at location = 300kg
200nm home at 160GS = 75min = 470kg
total mission fuel = 1330kg
giving a landing reserve of 320kg = 50min
That's with your head wind factored in!
My humble opinion it makes the tender requirement...
Don't forget after you transit 200km you have to spend some time on scene locating the casualty, establishing safe location to send aircrew down to assess casualty, treat on scene and prep for extraction. Then bring casualty (or casualties, and their extra weight and its impact on your flight profile) to suitable hospital, not necessaraly located near where you departed from. A recent casualty off the south coast had to be brought to Hospital in NI.
In the experience of this state, having an aircraft that "just" meets the requirements is a tragedy waiting to happen.
The S92 is a good SAR aircraft. Its downwash is not as harsh as its peers, the EHI01 or the Airbus H225M. The problem is down to corner cutting by CHC.
You want an aircraft with serious legs to operate in the Eastern Atlantic. You also want a cabin big enough to carry more than one casualty, in a stretcher if necessary. The AW139 just does not cut it. Fine for plucking swimmers in trouble from the cliffs and beaches in summer. No good for taking the crew off a cargo ship in a winter storm off the kerry coast.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by Heligun View PostThe Dublin ferries argument again.... how many ferries have sunk in Dublin.... Zero... Many many people get rescued off Dublin mountains or along the shore line. What did UK SAR have in Portland for years on the busiest shipping channel in the World.... 139. If a ferry sinks or hits rocks it's all hands on deck (pun intended), in any case the 139 could be considered a better platform for recovering casualties. It could winch lower and therefore faster (rotor downwash of the s92) and I'm guessing you could fit more 139s winching at the same time over the ship than S92s. If the people end up in the water more will be picked up by the RNLI than helicopters!
Agreed, the AC needs to re org to meet any challenge. Maybe thats the problem, if there's no challenge there is no reason for people to stay.
We have what we have because it was decided the AC were not the agency suitable to provide the states response to SAR requirement.
It shouldn't even be a debate at this stage !Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Apologies if this has been discussed in this thread already...is there any possibility that an organisation like this can get of the ground south of the border?
And leave the military EC135's for military stuff...whats your thoughts?
Lots of people said it couldn't be done here...its happened...X2 leased airframes with one available at any time... and making a huge difference.
Takes a Doctor straight to the patient...all for 2 million pounds a year.'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins
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Originally posted by spider View PostApologies if this has been discussed in this thread already...is there any possibility that an organisation like this can get of the ground south of the border?
And leave the military EC135's for military stuff...whats your thoughts?
Lots of people said it couldn't be done here...its happened...X2 leased airframes with one available at any time... and making a huge difference.
Takes a Doctor straight to the patient...all for 2 million pounds a year.
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Originally posted by DeV View Post
If it gets going (sadly it took the death of a high profile Dr in motor cycling circles to raise its profile here) can the military helicopters go back to doing military stuff?'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins
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