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  1. #1326
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    The Air Corps needs to be kept separate from SAR work because of all of that mentioned but also because we must never allow the lines of division between a Coast Guard and a functioning branch of the DF to be clouded again.

    For the same reason we need a dedicated HEMS rather than the AC providing a role that has been outsourced else where just as the SAR service has.
    100% agree.

    Even if only just to keep the mindset of the AC's people on being members of the Military as opposed to being Emergency service workers.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  3. #1327
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    100% agree here. Military have no business doing a civilian job; if they want to play at airlifting wounded, then learn how to do CSAR and get some real-world practise in doing so, wherever Irish troops are stationed abroad.

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  5. #1328
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    You need to take care with maximum values for helicopters more so than with aircraft.
    The AW139 does have a maximum range of 573nm, but that is with maximum fuel, aux fuel, no reserves and 2 crew. Given that the typical crew will be 4 and that the A/C will have to pick-up passengers the AW139 would struggle to meet the 200nm range and 45min station time.
    Standard fuel is 1568lt (1254kg) and aux is 500lt (400kg), 2 rescue crew are 200kg and you can easily add another 100kg for SAR kit. Given that the AW139 only has a payload capacity of 2200kg, this does not give you much capacity to pick people up. The additional 300kg from the crew and kit will have already reduced your range as the A/C will have burned more on the outbound leg making the 573nm impossible to reach. And remember the aircraft will have more weight onboard for the return legs once it has picked up those that had to be rescued. Factor in head-wind and reserves and you soon see the true range drop dramatically.

    The question: can the AW139 make the tender requirement and I believe the answer is yes. for the Numbers:

    Approx BOW of UK AW139 AWSAR is 4800kg giving a useful load of 2200kg with MAUW of 7000kg. With Max fuel of 1650kg gives it an endurance of 4hrs 35 to tanks dry, best range cruise of 140KIAS and fuel burn of 375kg/h

    4800 + 1650= 6450kg + 550kg for your crew and equipment brings you to MAUW

    Let assume mission with 20knot head wind at 200NM

    200nm at 120GS = 100min = 560kg fuel - AUW (assuming you lifted at 7000kg) at 200nm = AUW 6440kg which is plenty of lift capacity.

    45 min at location = 300kg

    200nm home at 160GS = 75min = 470kg

    total mission fuel = 1330kg

    giving a landing reserve of 320kg = 50min

    That's with your head wind factored in!

    My humble opinion it makes the tender requirement...

  6. #1329
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And how many casualties can it lift at that range compared to S92?

    Why is a medium lift needed in the Dublin region? A lot of ferries and aircraft carry a lot of people across the Irish Sea (and beyond)
    The problem is the AC can’t retain sufficient pilots or techs.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...39705?mode=amp
    The Dublin ferries argument again.... how many ferries have sunk in Dublin.... Zero... Many many people get rescued off Dublin mountains or along the shore line. What did UK SAR have in Portland for years on the busiest shipping channel in the World.... 139. If a ferry sinks or hits rocks it's all hands on deck (pun intended), in any case the 139 could be considered a better platform for recovering casualties. It could winch lower and therefore faster (rotor downwash of the s92) and I'm guessing you could fit more 139s winching at the same time over the ship than S92s. If the people end up in the water more will be picked up by the RNLI than helicopters!

    Agreed, the AC needs to re org to meet any challenge. Maybe thats the problem, if there's no challenge there is no reason for people to stay.

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  8. #1330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heligun View Post
    The question: can the AW139 make the tender requirement and I believe the answer is yes. for the Numbers:

    Approx BOW of UK AW139 AWSAR is 4800kg giving a useful load of 2200kg with MAUW of 7000kg. With Max fuel of 1650kg gives it an endurance of 4hrs 35 to tanks dry, best range cruise of 140KIAS and fuel burn of 375kg/h

    4800 + 1650= 6450kg + 550kg for your crew and equipment brings you to MAUW

    Let assume mission with 20knot head wind at 200NM

    200nm at 120GS = 100min = 560kg fuel - AUW (assuming you lifted at 7000kg) at 200nm = AUW 6440kg which is plenty of lift capacity.

    45 min at location = 300kg

    200nm home at 160GS = 75min = 470kg

    total mission fuel = 1330kg

    giving a landing reserve of 320kg = 50min

    That's with your head wind factored in!

    My humble opinion it makes the tender requirement...
    What it says on the brochure and real world conditions are not always the same.
    Don't forget after you transit 200km you have to spend some time on scene locating the casualty, establishing safe location to send aircrew down to assess casualty, treat on scene and prep for extraction. Then bring casualty (or casualties, and their extra weight and its impact on your flight profile) to suitable hospital, not necessaraly located near where you departed from. A recent casualty off the south coast had to be brought to Hospital in NI.

    In the experience of this state, having an aircraft that "just" meets the requirements is a tragedy waiting to happen.
    The S92 is a good SAR aircraft. Its downwash is not as harsh as its peers, the EHI01 or the Airbus H225M. The problem is down to corner cutting by CHC.
    You want an aircraft with serious legs to operate in the Eastern Atlantic. You also want a cabin big enough to carry more than one casualty, in a stretcher if necessary. The AW139 just does not cut it. Fine for plucking swimmers in trouble from the cliffs and beaches in summer. No good for taking the crew off a cargo ship in a winter storm off the kerry coast.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  10. #1331
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heligun View Post
    The Dublin ferries argument again.... how many ferries have sunk in Dublin.... Zero... Many many people get rescued off Dublin mountains or along the shore line. What did UK SAR have in Portland for years on the busiest shipping channel in the World.... 139. If a ferry sinks or hits rocks it's all hands on deck (pun intended), in any case the 139 could be considered a better platform for recovering casualties. It could winch lower and therefore faster (rotor downwash of the s92) and I'm guessing you could fit more 139s winching at the same time over the ship than S92s. If the people end up in the water more will be picked up by the RNLI than helicopters!

    Agreed, the AC needs to re org to meet any challenge. Maybe thats the problem, if there's no challenge there is no reason for people to stay.
    Not interested in the Dublin Bay ferries issue, the reality being the fisherman 200 miles off the west coats or down in the celtic sea who has had an accident and needs to be lifted.These are the bread and butter jobs of the CG, the ones they are available for 24/7 without having to be concerned about availability of crew,s servicing or even ATC.

    We have what we have because it was decided the AC were not the agency suitable to provide the states response to SAR requirement.

    It shouldn't even be a debate at this stage !
    Time for another break I think......

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  12. #1332
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    Apologies if this has been discussed in this thread already...is there any possibility that an organisation like this can get of the ground south of the border?

    And leave the military EC135's for military stuff...whats your thoughts?

    http://www.airambulanceni.org/

    Lots of people said it couldn't be done here...its happened...X2 leased airframes with one available at any time... and making a huge difference.

    Takes a Doctor straight to the patient...all for 2 million pounds a year.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  14. #1333
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    Apologies if this has been discussed in this thread already...is there any possibility that an organisation like this can get of the ground south of the border?

    And leave the military EC135's for military stuff...whats your thoughts?

    http://www.airambulanceni.org/

    Lots of people said it couldn't be done here...its happened...X2 leased airframes with one available at any time... and making a huge difference.

    Takes a Doctor straight to the patient...all for 2 million pounds a year.
    Something like this ??

    http://communityairambulance.ie

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  16. #1334
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    Apart from a few photo shoots using the Heli that services the Kinsale rigs, the southern operation has yet to commence operations.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  18. #1335
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Something like this ??

    http://communityairambulance.ie
    Yes something like that.

    If it gets going (sadly it took the death of a high profile Dr in motor cycling circles to raise its profile here) can the military helicopters go back to doing military stuff?
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  20. #1336
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    Dr. John. Legend in so many ways. A huge loss to the motorcycling world he was. Delta 7 RIP.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  22. #1337
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Reading in one of the red tops about a diver who had to be flown to norn iron to a hyperbaric chamber by the coast guard as there was no staff to run the one in uchg...do the NS not have one? I thought they've one on a truck? The Diver got into trouble after diving in cork.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  23. #1338
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    Reading in one of the red tops about a diver who had to be flown to norn iron to a hyperbaric chamber by the coast guard as there was no staff to run the one in uchg...do the NS not have one? I thought they've one on a truck? The Diver got into trouble after diving in cork.
    they do but not sure if it would suit every situation

  24. #1339
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    http://jrnl.ie/4056309f

    €7m to fund a 12 hour night time air ambulance service but a cut of €700k to the AC helped create this mess

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  26. #1340
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    http://jrnl.ie/4056309f

    €7m to fund a 12 hour night time air ambulance service but a cut of €700k to the AC helped create this mess
    Split a €1m between the 1 Ops Wing pilots and another €1m between the ATC'ers as a retention package would have solved the problem and saved the taxpayer €5m.

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  28. #1341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Split a €1m between the 1 Ops Wing pilots and another €1m between the ATC'ers as a retention package would have solved the problem and saved the taxpayer €5m.
    Don't forget to include the technicians. There are three major problem areas. Pilots, ATC and technicians, in no particular order.

    The whole issue is a farce to be honest.

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  30. #1342
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Sloane Helicopters is going to provide an A109 out of Cork Airport from August for ICRR

    https://www.icrr.ie/community-air-am...ay-to-ireland/

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  32. #1343
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Sloane Helicopters is going to provide an A109 out of Cork Airport from August for ICRR

    https://www.icrr.ie/community-air-am...ay-to-ireland/
    I have a terrible feeling of deja-vu about this. It seems to have been announced about three times in the last 10 years.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  34. #1344
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I have a terrible feeling of deja-vu about this. It seems to have been announced about three times in the last 10 years.
    And trying to raise €2 million annually in funding

  35. #1345
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Split a €1m between the 1 Ops Wing pilots and another €1m between the ATC'ers as a retention package would have solved the problem and saved the taxpayer €5m.
    And how about the aircraft ?.. they have to be funded, albeit the initial capitalistation is at the tax payers expense, its not free and has to be built into the cost.

    Looking for roles for state assets that are already in place is a fallacy , when situations change and the non primary role cannot be met there is a blackhole and everyone wonder why?

    We need to take air ambulance out of state hands and privatize it. To many fifedoms state service to ensure a fully functioning service. I blip on the service and it ends up in a tribunal costing more that it did to establish a proper service.

    Outsource it and get over it!
    Time for another break I think......

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  37. #1346
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    I think its a sad day if this is taken away from the Air Corps, they have proved to be so reliable and professional in the Air Ambulance role travelling to the four corners of the Country and have saved so many lives on a daily basis, im sure its a role they get great satisfaction out of doing along with their colleges in the HSE. Air Corps 112 has proved to be a fantastic life service and long may it continue.

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  39. #1347
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    There are crossed wires here. The contract awarded is for out of hours patient transfer to the UK. Air Corps still provide the routine hours service (Lear).
    This has nothing to do with 112.
    The Cork announcement is a sideshow, if anything. I will be the first to celebrate if I am proven wrong, but I have seen similar announcements, with people wearing similar clothes, once with a Bond EC135 in the background, another with an A109.
    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j...mwyD_qhsSSWE2I
    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j...u7qzfrj4ftpiKZ
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  41. #1348
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    There are a number of balls in the air here:

    We have HEMS type work (scene to hospital / transfers between Irish hospitals )
    We have air ambulance type work (Home/hospital to generally the UK)

    Involved now we have:
    EAS 112 (HEMS)
    IRCG (both)
    ICAA (HEMS)
    Other AC a/c (air ambulance)
    The contractor (air ambulance)

    AC has the aircraft, has the spare capacity, it needs the personnel.


    There is no way on earth that ICAA will be able to fundraise € 2 m annually, probably 80% of their funding will have to come from the HSE unless they find a corporate sponsor with very deep pockets

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  43. #1349
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    he contract awarded is for out of hours patient transfer to the UK. Air Corps still provide the routine hours service (Lear).
    And there within is the crux of the problem, we are buying aircraft looking for roles for them as opposed to using them to their maximum potential and then looking for other work..and yes I know its also a ministerial taxi.. and how how many times have we got that one wrong in the past.


    If you outsource the service the service provider has to supply the air craft, the crews and replacements as required....short of more MATS aircraft we using resources that could be spent elsewhere within the DF.

    The Cork announcement is a sideshow, if anything. I will be the first to celebrate if I am proven wrong, but I have seen similar announcements, with people wearing similar clothes, once with a Bond EC135 in the background, another with an A109.
    You are indeed spot on, they were selling it cover Cork , Kerry and Waterford.

    the Aer Corps is being buttonholed into jobs that are done in other countries by non state assets. We will in effect end up witha an Aer Corps whose entire existence will be to support the NAS.

    We've discuused at lenght what they should be doing in line with varuious battle groups etc, yet we are digging them into other roles , possibly trying to justify their existence.
    Time for another break I think......

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  45. #1350
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian McGrath View Post
    I think its a sad day if this is taken away from the Air Corps, they have proved to be so reliable and professional in the Air Ambulance role travelling to the four corners of the Country and have saved so many lives on a daily basis, im sure its a role they get great satisfaction out of doing along with their colleges in the HSE. Air Corps 112 has proved to be a fantastic life service and long may it continue.
    Three words.

    NOT THEIR JOB!!!!.

    A secondary function that has been allowed to supplant their primary role IOT keep the pilots hours up.
    Privatise.Just like everyone else does and let the AC get back to doing what they should be doing.Military flying.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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