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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post

    ...AC...has the spare capacity
    really?

    does it?

    so the AC is only doing this Facebook bait after every 105mm LG Bty, every 120mm Mortar Bty, and every RBS70 AD Bty has spent a couple of days every month practicing Shoot'n Scoot fire missions and helicopter redeplyments?

    every Inf Coy has spent a couple of days every month practicing helicopter insertions and creating patrol bases through air mobility?

    every NS vessel has spent a few days every month practicing VertReps?

    the AC spending a couple of days every month basing a helicopter flight at a remote, austere location: fueling, arming, maintaining the helicopters, planning the missions in the field and forming a close, seemless partnership with the other units that would operate in support of them in the field - the Combat Engineers who readied the site and built the fuel dumps and magazines, the Inf force providing the security, and the Logs Spt providing everything from fuel to bacon butties and toilets?

    blimey, you've either got a lot more hours in the day than everyone else, or a lot more helicopters than the DoD website says you have...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
      really?

      does it?

      so the AC is only doing this Facebook bait after every 105mm LG Bty, every 120mm Mortar Bty, and every RBS70 AD Bty has spent a couple of days every month practicing Shoot'n Scoot fire missions and helicopter redeplyments?

      every Inf Coy has spent a couple of days every month practicing helicopter insertions and creating patrol bases through air mobility?

      every NS vessel has spent a few days every month practicing VertReps?

      the AC spending a couple of days every month basing a helicopter flight at a remote, austere location: fueling, arming, maintaining the helicopters, planning the missions in the field and forming a close, seemless partnership with the other units that would operate in support of them in the field - the Combat Engineers who readied the site and built the fuel dumps and magazines, the Inf force providing the security, and the Logs Spt providing everything from fuel to bacon butties and toilets?

      blimey, you've either got a lot more hours in the day than everyone else, or a lot more helicopters than the DoD website says you have...
      It has the aircraft that are capable of the hours but:
      - the hours aren’t funded
      - there aren’t enough pilots
      - there aren’t enough techs
      - some work practices require reform

      Comment


      • It has the aircraft that are capable of the hours but:
        - the hours aren’t funded
        - there aren’t enough pilots
        - there aren’t enough techs
        - some work practices require reform

        But all of these would not be issues if they were carrying out military function as opposed to NAS work!
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

        Comment


        • Originally posted by apod View Post
          Three words.

          NOT THEIR JOB!!!!.

          A secondary function that has been allowed to supplant their primary role IOT keep the pilots hours up.
          Privatise.Just like everyone else does and let the AC get back to doing what they should be doing.Military flying.
          Apod, you have a superior understanding of Army operations than I but you're understanding of the AC and more importantly the political strings that are being pulled behind the scenes are severely lacking.

          Firstly, there is no requirement to maintain "pilot hours" in the AC. Have a read of the ARM and let me know how you get on. The maintenance schedule of the aircraft and the availabile hours are what drives the tempo of flight ops. Pilots are required to maintain currency in different disciplines which are laid out in Wing/Sqn SOPs or Part A supplementals. There is absolutely nothing to be ticked by doing EAS ops except the odd confined area landing as it is essentially VFR flying. Crews (not just pilots) will still need to complete various sorties in slinging, bambi bucket, fast roping, winching etc to maintain currency. EAS due to the high tempo of ops consumes a large amount of aircraft hours, and obviously you need crews to fly them so lets not put the cart before the donkey to suit your narrative. So your point is complete BS to be honest. EAS has absolutely nothing to do with "pilot hours".

          I understand that as a soldier you want every asset and piece of equipment that is available, made available to you for training/ops which I completely understand.

          The AC has become a guinea pig for the government in this instance and has carried out the EAS experiment very successfully, barring one accident, for 6 years.

          The politicians and the DOD run the AC. Not the COS, not GOCAC. They are the ones who direct the allocation of resources. Shit rolls downhill as you well know, and unless you have a very valid reason for not doing something, you have no option but to do it. So perhaps you should ask Maurice Quinn why he values EAS more than slinging around 105's or doing troop drills.

          To be honest, given the choice of having a 139 carrying out life saving work, actually saving people's lives or spending a day sitting down in Kilworth doing troop drills or slinging guns around, I know which I'd rather as a taxpayer and citizen.

          You might not like that point of view but in the day of optics, strict budgets and PR, EAS is an easy win for the DoD.

          Unless there are definitive plans to deploy the AC overseas with troops, to wherever that may be, then finite resources shouldnt be wasted training toward pie in the sky stuff "just cause".

          I've read on here numerous times that helicopters were needed in Chad. And that may well have been the case. Chad was 10 years ago, how many times have they been needed since? Are people still going to be beating the same drum in 20 years time? The current overseas missions, of the DF do not require organic air assets as they are either not required or are provided by other contingents. That's the reality as I see it. Organic air assets are currently very much a nice to have, not a need to have.

          This notion that the AC should be deploying AC to "austere" environments for days at a time is laughable as well. How "austere" is what the Italians are doing in UNIFIL? They are doing the exact same VFR flying as AC crews albeit in an region where the weather is significantly better for VFR flight overall.

          There was no restriction on deploying aircraft overseas in the 2015WP as was the case in the previous one. But there was no statement of intent to do it either. The status quo really.

          Next time you happen to talk to AC helicopter crews, ask them would they rather be doing EAS or doing an overseas mission where they could do actual "military flying" as you put it. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority would rather the latter.

          "Privatise it" is the usual Irish solution to any problem. Rarely results in a better deal for the taxpayer.

          What about GASU? Should be privatise that aswell or does that get a pass because it falls under a different heading on the military.ie website?

          Youu should read the 2015WP mission statement. This is the policy guidance document which drives everything the DF does, whether you agree with it or not.

          "To provide a range of other supports to government departments and agencies in line with MOUs and SLAs agreed by the Department of Defence e.g. search and rescue and air ambulance services".

          I mean no malice in my post but you appear at times to have a very blinkered, singular view of how things should be done in the DF. We are all entitled to our opinion but you have to consider the broader picture.

          I appreciate I have gone slightly off topic but it is required at times to correct misinformation.
          Last edited by Chuck; 13 June 2018, 13:47.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
            But all of these would not be issues if they were carrying out military function as opposed to NAS work!
            EAS - 1 aircraft, 2 pilots and 1 crewman, probably 3/4 techs on a daylight only op

            Any air ambulance is daylight only and depends on aircraft that is available

            Originally posted by Chuck View Post
            Apod, you have a superior understanding of Army operations than I but you're understanding of the AC and more importantly the political strings that are being pulled behind the scenes are severely lacking.

            Firstly, there is no requirement to maintain "pilot hours" in the AC. Have a read of the ARM and let me know how you get on. The maintenance schedule of the aircraft and the availabile hours are what drives the tempo of flight ops. Pilots are required to maintain currency in different disciplines which are laid out in Wing/Sqn SOPs or Part A supplementals. There is absolutely nothing to be ticked by doing EAS ops except the odd confined area landing as it is essentially VFR flying. Crews (not just pilots) will still need to complete various sorties in slinging, bambi bucket, fast roping, winching etc to maintain currency. EAS due to the high tempo of ops consumes a large amount of aircraft hours, and obviously you need crews to fly them so lets not put the cart before the donkey to suit your narrative. So your point is complete BS to be honest. EAS has absolutely nothing to do with "pilot hours".

            I understand that as a soldier you want every asset and piece of equipment that is available, made available to you for training/ops which I completely understand.

            The AC has become a guinea pig for the government in this instance and has carried out the EAS experiment very successfully, barring one accident, for 6 years.

            The politicians and the DOD run the AC. Not the COS, not GOCAC. They are the ones who direct the allocation of resources. Shit rolls downhill as you well know, and unless you have a very valid reason for not doing something, you have no option but to do it. So perhaps you should ask Maurice Quinn why he values EAS more than slinging around 105's or doing troop drills.

            To be honest, given the choice of having a 139 carrying out life saving work, actually saving people's lives or spending a day sitting down in Kilworth doing troop drills or slinging guns around, I know which I'd rather as a taxpayer and citizen.

            You might not like that point of view but in the day of optics, strict budgets and PR, EAS is an easy win for the DoD.

            Unless there are definitive plans to deploy the AC overseas with troops, to wherever that may be, then finite resources shouldnt be wasted training toward pie in the sky stuff "just cause".

            I've read on here numerous times that helicopters were needed in Chad. And that may well have been the case. Chad was 10 years ago, how many times have they been needed since? Are people still going to be beating the same drum in 20 years time? The current overseas missions, of the DF do not require organic air assets as they are either not required or are provided by other contingents. That's the reality as I see it. Organic air assets are currently very much a nice to have, not a need to have.

            This notion that the AC should be deploying AC to "austere" environments for days at a time is laughable as well. How "austere" is what the Italians are doing in UNIFIL? They are doing the exact same VFR flying as AC crews albeit in an region where the weather is significantly better for VFR flight overall.

            There was no restriction on deploying aircraft overseas in the 2015WP as was the case in the previous one. But there was no statement of intent to do it either. The status quo really.

            Next time you happen to talk to AC helicopter crews, ask them would they rather be doing EAS or doing an overseas mission where they could do actual "military flying" as you put it. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority would rather the latter.

            "Privatise it" is the usual Irish solution to any problem. Rarely results in a better deal for the taxpayer.

            What about GASU? Should be privatise that aswell or does that get a pass because it falls under a different heading on the military.ie website?

            Youu should read the 2015WP mission statement. This is the policy guidance document which drives everything the DF does, whether you agree with it or not.

            "To provide a range of other supports to government departments and agencies in line with MOUs and SLAs agreed by the Department of Defence e.g. search and rescue and air ambulance services".

            I mean no malice in my post but you appear at times to have a very blinkered, singular view of how things should be done in the DF. We are all entitled to our opinion but you have to consider the broader picture.

            I appreciate I have gone slightly off topic but it is required at times to correct misinformation.
            No doubt hours on EAS or any other op feed into currency

            GOCAC has command (unlike COS) but he has to follow the orders within the resources provided

            Comment


            • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
              And how about the aircraft ?.. they have to be funded, albeit the initial capitalistation is at the tax payers expense, its not free and has to be built into the cost.

              Looking for roles for state assets that are already in place is a fallacy , when situations change and the non primary role cannot be met there is a blackhole and everyone wonder why?

              We need to take air ambulance out of state hands and privatize it. To many fifedoms state service to ensure a fully functioning service. I blip on the service and it ends up in a tribunal costing more that it did to establish a proper service.

              Outsource it and get over it!
              It's already funded, the Air Corps gets an allocation out of the Defence budget to operate and maintain its aircraft. The Lear or a Casa flying a child overseas for a heart transplant will not cost extra cent to the taxpayer.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                EAS - 1 aircraft, 2 pilots and 1 crewman, probably 3/4 techs on a daylight only op

                Any air ambulance is daylight only and depends on aircraft that is available



                No doubt hours on EAS or any other op feed into currency

                GOCAC has command (unlike COS) but he has to follow the orders within the resources provided
                GOC Air Corps has command, yes. That is kind of given away in the title.

                He does not have the authority to decide "let's redirect our resources from EAS to have a few lads sleep in tents down the back of kilworth with the troops because someone thinks this would be a great idea."

                The job of the GOCAC is to implement government policy. The DoD and the HSE (dept of health) draft up an SLA. The secretary general then fires it onto GOCAC with a note saying "Make it work".

                He does what he is told to do. Like everyone else in the DF, he also has a boss. And unfortunately, like the majority of seniors officers who may hold aspirations for promotion, he isn't going to rock the boat if he disagrees with what the DoD want.

                I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                  It's already funded, the Air Corps gets an allocation out of the Defence budget to operate and maintain its aircraft. The Lear or a Casa flying a child overseas for a heart transplant will not cost extra cent to the taxpayer.
                  The aircraft had to be purchased and will have to be replaced at the tax payers expense no matter what it does or never does.

                  Any air ambulance is daylight only and depends on aircraft that is available
                  I think your understanding of Air Ambulance is a little confused. Any flight were an aircraft is used to transfer a patient internally or to the UK is classified as an Air Ambulance , Air Ambulance with transplants etc is 24/7

                  The job of the GOCAC is to implement government policy
                  There within lies the problem, political policy shouldn't be allowed interfer with the operation of aircraft, because in reality thats all it is.. politcos doing the job on the cheap.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                    Apod, you have a superior understanding of Army operations than I but you're understanding of the AC and more importantly the political strings that are being pulled behind the scenes are severely lacking.

                    Firstly, there is no requirement to maintain "pilot hours" in the AC. Have a read of the ARM and let me know how you get on. The maintenance schedule of the aircraft and the availabile hours are what drives the tempo of flight ops. Pilots are required to maintain currency in different disciplines which are laid out in Wing/Sqn SOPs or Part A supplementals. There is absolutely nothing to be ticked by doing EAS ops except the odd confined area landing as it is essentially VFR flying. Crews (not just pilots) will still need to complete various sorties in slinging, bambi bucket, fast roping, winching etc to maintain currency. EAS due to the high tempo of ops consumes a large amount of aircraft hours, and obviously you need crews to fly them so lets not put the cart before the donkey to suit your narrative. So your point is complete BS to be honest. EAS has absolutely nothing to do with "pilot hours".

                    I understand that as a soldier you want every asset and piece of equipment that is available, made available to you for training/ops which I completely understand.

                    The AC has become a guinea pig for the government in this instance and has carried out the EAS experiment very successfully, barring one accident, for 6 years.

                    The politicians and the DOD run the AC. Not the COS, not GOCAC. They are the ones who direct the allocation of resources. Shit rolls downhill as you well know, and unless you have a very valid reason for not doing something, you have no option but to do it. So perhaps you should ask Maurice Quinn why he values EAS more than slinging around 105's or doing troop drills.

                    To be honest, given the choice of having a 139 carrying out life saving work, actually saving people's lives or spending a day sitting down in Kilworth doing troop drills or slinging guns around, I know which I'd rather as a taxpayer and citizen.

                    You might not like that point of view but in the day of optics, strict budgets and PR, EAS is an easy win for the DoD.

                    Unless there are definitive plans to deploy the AC overseas with troops, to wherever that may be, then finite resources shouldnt be wasted training toward pie in the sky stuff "just cause".

                    I've read on here numerous times that helicopters were needed in Chad. And that may well have been the case. Chad was 10 years ago, how many times have they been needed since? Are people still going to be beating the same drum in 20 years time? The current overseas missions, of the DF do not require organic air assets as they are either not required or are provided by other contingents. That's the reality as I see it. Organic air assets are currently very much a nice to have, not a need to have.

                    This notion that the AC should be deploying AC to "austere" environments for days at a time is laughable as well. How "austere" is what the Italians are doing in UNIFIL? They are doing the exact same VFR flying as AC crews albeit in an region where the weather is significantly better for VFR flight overall.

                    There was no restriction on deploying aircraft overseas in the 2015WP as was the case in the previous one. But there was no statement of intent to do it either. The status quo really.

                    Next time you happen to talk to AC helicopter crews, ask them would they rather be doing EAS or doing an overseas mission where they could do actual "military flying" as you put it. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority would rather the latter.

                    "Privatise it" is the usual Irish solution to any problem. Rarely results in a better deal for the taxpayer.

                    What about GASU? Should be privatise that aswell or does that get a pass because it falls under a different heading on the military.ie website?

                    Youu should read the 2015WP mission statement. This is the policy guidance document which drives everything the DF does, whether you agree with it or not.

                    "To provide a range of other supports to government departments and agencies in line with MOUs and SLAs agreed by the Department of Defence e.g. search and rescue and air ambulance services".

                    I mean no malice in my post but you appear at times to have a very blinkered, singular view of how things should be done in the DF. We are all entitled to our opinion but you have to consider the broader picture.

                    I appreciate I have gone slightly off topic but it is required at times to correct misinformation.
                    Less of the patronising if you don't mind.Play the ball not the man etc. You may disagree with me but for you to confuse my "Blinkered ,singular view" for stupidity would be a mistake.
                    I am neither. I am a straight shooter and I don't believe in BS.Despite your opinion.
                    The simple fact is the 139's and 135's were purchased and lauded as Army Support Helis and that was going to be their bread and butter. I was on the very first Infantry exercises that they were used on. The crews were all about the "new era" of Army co-op that was being ushered in.

                    That lasted all of 5 minutes.

                    The "SAR is the AC" brigade were not one bit impressed and hankered back to the halcyon days of dope on a rope and blue flight suits.
                    The Military Co-op was doomed from the start.
                    Go back to the later part of the first ten years of the noughties. We were in an out of Helis more than times than four tonners. Now,unless you are on a specialist course you can forget it.

                    The problem is the mindset.But hey WTF would I know.I am just an Ignorant grunt.
                    Last edited by apod; 14 June 2018, 18:05.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                      GOC Air Corps has command, yes. That is kind of given away in the title.

                      He does not have the authority to decide "let's redirect our resources from EAS to have a few lads sleep in tents down the back of kilworth with the troops because someone thinks this would be a great idea."

                      The job of the GOCAC is to implement government policy. The DoD and the HSE (dept of health) draft up an SLA. The secretary general then fires it onto GOCAC with a note saying "Make it work".

                      He does what he is told to do. Like everyone else in the DF, he also has a boss. And unfortunately, like the majority of seniors officers who may hold aspirations for promotion, he isn't going to rock the boat if he disagrees with what the DoD want.

                      I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
                      GOCAC has command and he (not DoD or the Minister) is responsible for running of the AC.

                      He is in a nutshell - responsible for everything the AC does and fails to do.

                      He has of course to do so within the policies set by DoD, the resources provided by Government (and DoD). And undertake the missions assigned to him by Government.

                      What the DF suffers from that due to indoctrination, group think and the can do attitude (plus experience), they will rarely say no or say yes but we need more resources.... and gain them.

                      Having said that it is part of the inherent nature of a military organisation and some examples do come to mind where it has been done.


                      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      The aircraft had to be purchased and will have to be replaced at the tax payers expense no matter what it does or never does.

                      I think your understanding of Air Ambulance is a little confused. Any flight were an aircraft is used to transfer a patient internally or to the UK is classified as an Air Ambulance , Air Ambulance with transplants etc is 24/7

                      There within lies the problem, political policy shouldn't be allowed interfer with the operation of aircraft, because in reality thats all it is.. politcos doing the job on the cheap.
                      The only extras are fuel, additional maintenance due to associated extra flying hours (some of that maintenance would be performed anyway) and maybe some additional allowances.

                      Correct but there are a number of aspects to that:
                      (a) the incident scene to the hospital (local/regional/specialist)
                      (b) the local/regional hospital to a regional/specialist hospital
                      (c) the likes of transplant patients who will generally be flown from a location near their home (could be a pitch or an airport to an airport (which is generally in the UK). There can be a number of legs to this type of op (it could be for example a IRCG pick up from a local pitch in west Clare to Dublin and the fixed wing to Northolt) or it could be fixed wing direct from Shannon to Northolt.

                      You are absolutely correct they are all defined as air ambulance or HEMS (where a heli is involved) but they are extremely different tastings, with different demands and some require additional skill sets.

                      Last time I checked this is a democracy and Government tell the military what to do not the other way around.
                      Last edited by DeV; 13 June 2018, 22:18.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                        The aircraft had to be purchased and will have to be replaced at the tax payers expense no matter what it does or never does.
                        The aircraft are already there, the Air Corps doesn't go out and by an aircraft to compleat a transfer, they use existing aircraft. It does not cost an extra cent to the taxpayer.

                        Comment


                        • The GOC Aer Corp in the past stated in the magazine "Flying in Ireland" that the stated aim was to have Pilots when leaving to have at least so many hours up on their log books.
                          This may be the Brillcream boys priority. Flight hours from where ever they can get them.
                          Last edited by sofa; 14 June 2018, 00:04.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by sofa View Post
                            The GOC Aer Corp in the past stated in the magazine "Flying in Ireland" that the stated aim was to have Pilots when leaving to have at least so many hours up on their log books.
                            This may be the Brillcream boys priority. Flight hours from where ever they can get them.
                            If it was 500 hours that a major problem , if it was 5000 hours then they have stayed a fair well and put their time in

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                              The aircraft are already there, the Air Corps doesn't go out and by an aircraft to compleat a transfer, they use existing aircraft. It does not cost an extra cent to the taxpayer.
                              Again your missing the point. the aircraft are being used because they are there...if they become the sole supplier of the service, when the aircraft are no longer available they will have to be replaced at the state expense.

                              Any contracted service provider cannot include the cost of aircraft purchase in the tender ( mots will probably just lease them anyway)

                              The aircraft in use were not intended for what they are used for and a such their life time and availability is been eaten into to provide a service to meet a political agenda. Going back to when the Allouettes were purchased it has been the same.....

                              We buy them under the guise of advancing our military wing and they spend 90% of their working lives doing civilian roles..their purchase and replacement is from a defence capital budget but the DF get relatively little practical use because of their management.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • The only extras are fuel, additional maintenance due to associated extra flying hours (some of that maintenance would be performed anyway) and maybe some additional allowances.

                                Correct but there are a number of aspects to that:
                                (a) the incident scene to the hospital (local/regional/specialist)
                                (b) the local/regional hospital to a regional/specialist hospital
                                (c) the likes of transplant patients who will generally be flown from a location near their home (could be a pitch or an airport to an airport (which is generally in the UK). There can be a number of legs to this type of op (it could be for example a IRCG pick up from a local pitch in west Clare to Dublin and the fixed wing to Northolt) or it could be fixed wing direct from Shannon to Northolt.

                                You are absolutely correct they are all defined as air ambulance or HEMS (where a heli is involved) but they are extremely different tastings, with different demands and some require additional skill sets.
                                Working in acute hospital I'm well aware of what the types of transfer are...and from an aviation back round what it takes to get machines to go where.

                                But its not really relevent to the point what were are doing is actually decreasing the availability of machines to those who should be using them as Ropebag and Apod have pointed out.

                                Government policy should be about providing the service from the optimal supplier. The Air corps is not an optimal supplier, yes it does an admirable job, but at a cost to the DF.

                                The military should be a back up to civilian services....not the primary supplier of service !

                                This is where successive governments have abused power for so long , doing things on the cheap using the DF when there should be specialist companies out there... we no longer have the DF covering bus strikes, bin strikes, and firefighters strikes, but we have the AC running around doing the NAS job... and again no offence to the AC but its not what a military air wing is for.
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                                Comment

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