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  • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
    The co-founder of that initiative is also the full time Civil Defence Officer for Cork South, among other things
    And also appears to have been involved in the Community rapid response programme. Would it cost 2m to run the heli annually?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by apod View Post
      True.However it's not a job they should be doing.Those helis were bought for army co-op.Having one based in Athlone has a knock on impact on how many are available for the task they were purchased for at any one time.
      Air ambulance is done by civi companies in the UK for example,sponsored by private business.
      So if they are not doing Air Ambulance work, what would they really be doing seeing as they are based solely in Ireland. We lost SAR and now we shouldnt be doing Air Ambulance, why have helicopters at all although who would bring the ballot boxes to the islands.

      Air Ambulance is a vital task and they do it well. It keeps the Air Corps in the public eye

      Comment


      • Originally posted by apc View Post
        So if they are not doing Air Ambulance work, what would they really be doing seeing as they are based solely in Ireland. We lost SAR and now we shouldnt be doing Air Ambulance, why have helicopters at all although who would bring the ballot boxes to the islands.

        Air Ambulance is a vital task and they do it well. It keeps the Air Corps in the public eye
        Military flying. What they were bought for. The reason you can stick a GPMG in the door.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

        Comment


        • If we are doing military flying we should have proper military helicopters and not just civil painted green. There is a massive difference between the standards on a Blackhawk compared to the standard of an AW139. Sticking a MG on a family car does not turn it into a tank!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            If we are doing military flying we should have proper military helicopters and not just civil painted green. There is a massive difference between the standards on a Blackhawk compared to the standard of an AW139. Sticking a MG on a family car does not turn it into a tank!
            But unfortunately we paid €48.4m for 4 X AW139 in 2005

            Mexico got a FMS agreement for 3 x UH60M last year for USD 110m (€102 m) and I assume that is ex VAT

            Comment


            • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
              Military flying. What they were bought for. The reason you can stick a GPMG in the door.
              Ok on a day to day basis what does that mean? I could understand them being exclusively for military use if they were being deployed overseas as part of our peacekeeping role or in a permanent security role ( maybe this will happen when Britain leaves the EU), but besides training they seem to me not to have a defined function. Doesnt ATCP and the Air Ambulance and flying the Garda Helicopters give the aircrews value rather than just flying the odd training flight

              Comment


              • Originally posted by apc View Post
                Ok on a day to day basis what does that mean? I could understand them being exclusively for military use if they were being deployed overseas as part of our peacekeeping role or in a permanent security role ( maybe this will happen when Britain leaves the EU), but besides training they seem to me not to have a defined function. Doesnt ATCP and the Air Ambulance and flying the Garda Helicopters give the aircrews value rather than just flying the odd training flight
                See the tender


                TBH it isn't the eating up of the helo or the hours that I'd be worried about (HSE foot the bill don't they?).

                It is a priority tasking and therefore the aircrew (who are in very short supply) aren't available for other missions/taskings
                Last edited by DeV; 25 January 2017, 12:40.

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                • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  See the tender


                  TBH it isn't the eating up of the helo or the hours that I'd be worried about (HSE foot the bill don't they?).

                  It is a priority tasking and therefore the aircrew (who are in very short supply) aren't available for other missions/taskings
                  I understand what a military helicopters roles are and I understand that people would prefer we had the Helicopters solely for military use ,but in reality Helicopters in the context the Defence Forces and their sole military use would I imagine be extremely rare and I would presume most military use is planned ahead,
                  Is the lack of Trained crew partly effected by the perceived role of the Air Corp that it is solely based at home with little or no chance of overseas service?
                  Do many pilots finish their contract or can they still buy their way out?

                  Comment


                  • Believe me.There is more than enough work to do for the crews and the airframes between the Army and navy just training alone. That's before we talk operational task's which there are plenty of also but we are not going to discuss here.The snag is to keep one Airframe on duty for HEMS means half the fleet unavailable for training.Now ask yourself what the other half of the fleet is doing or what they might be on standby to do and that means that the units that want to use the much vaunted "Military co-op" heli's cant.
                    Thanks to HEMS we are right back to the days of SAR and not having Heli's available for anything other than tasks that should be contracted out.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • elieve me.There is more than enough work to do for the crews and the airframes between the Army and navy just training alone. That's before we talk operational task's which there are plenty of also but we are not going to discuss here.The snag is to keep one Airframe on duty for HEMS means half the fleet unavailable for training.Now ask yourself what the other half of the fleet is doing or what they might be on standby to do and that means that the units that want to use the much vaunted "Military co-op" heli's cant.
                      Thanks to HEMS we are right back to the days of SAR and not having Heli's available for anything other than tasks that should be contracted out.
                      One of the better posts on IMO in recent time
                      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                      Comment


                      • In my opinion, many people in this godforsaken country, for the most part, automatically assume that because we aren't fast roping operators into compounds in the afghan theatre or "heli-vacing" out lone snipers from war torn LZ's, that if it wasnt for HEMS, the helis would sit there gathering dust.

                        This is Ireland today and the result of decades of Govt's (and by extension the civilian population), pandering to a fake neutrality, treating the defence forces in general and specifically the aircorps with derision and ridicule, as kids with toys, as a token force with no real purpose. result is major underfunding that matches the misunderstanding
                        "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                        "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by apod View Post
                          The snag is to keep one Airframe on duty for HEMS means half the fleet unavailable for training.
                          So, are you still looking at 33% availability on cabs? If 3 are tied up on HEMS/EAS does that mean the remaining 3 are tied up covering Air Ambulance from Bal?

                          Comment


                          • Besides EAS/Air Ambulance and ATCP VIP transport and the Transport of the ARW at very short notice if required operationally, then I assume the rest of the use for the Helicopter would be centred around Training and exercises , most of which are planned ahead and would be based on the assets available. I am trying to think of a real time operational scenario that isnt a "what if" that would require the movement of 40/50 troops or equipment within the Island at short notice
                            The loss of SAR was a big mistake in my opinion it took away an of operational experience that could never be replicated by training and it is an area thw Air Corp would have excelled in and did for many years with unsuitable equipment. Most of that experience must be gone by now. At least EAS gives operational experience to crews. You can train all you like but unless you can get the operational experience to use that training then its value deminishes.
                            I am not trying to protray the Air Corp as "boys with toys" they ae extremely professional, but would they rather be flying EAS or dropping troops into the Glen

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by apc View Post
                              ...but would they rather be flying EAS or dropping troops into the Glen...
                              if they'd rather be doing EAS then they are in the wrong job.

                              your point about the schedualing of helicopter based exercises rather misses the very obvious point that you can't schedule a large scale exercise involving helicopters if those helicopters have already been tapped for the next year by air ambulance tasks.

                              when was the last time an RBS70 Battery did a rapid deployment exercise?

                              when was the last time a 105mm LG battery practiced a 'shoot and scoot' exercise?

                              when was the last time the AC practiced a no-notice, Coy strength troop movement?

                              when was the last time the AC practiced a large scale deployment exercise - abandoned airfield, tents, tech spt, log spt, ATC etc..?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by apc View Post
                                Besides EAS/Air Ambulance and ATCP VIP transport and the Transport of the ARW at very short notice if required operationally, then I assume the rest of the use for the Helicopter would be centred around Training and exercises , most of which are planned ahead and would be based on the assets available. I am trying to think of a real time operational scenario that isnt a "what if" that would require the movement of 40/50 troops or equipment within the Island at short notice
                                The loss of SAR was a big mistake in my opinion it took away an of operational experience that could never be replicated by training and it is an area thw Air Corp would have excelled in and did for many years with unsuitable equipment. Most of that experience must be gone by now. At least EAS gives operational experience to crews. You can train all you like but unless you can get the operational experience to use that training then its value deminishes.
                                I am not trying to protray the Air Corp as "boys with toys" they ae extremely professional, but would they rather be flying EAS or dropping troops into the Glen
                                You seem to have no understanding of the phrase "operational experience".

                                SAR and EAS while they may provide flying experience, provide nothing at all resembling operational experience for a military air arm. They are civilian roles and must remain such.

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