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  1. #26
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    Irish Times - Air Corps may operate Air Ambulance

    Anyone know when the decision is due to be made?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by balkanhawk View Post
    Irish Times - Air Corps may operate Air Ambulance

    Anyone know when the decision is due to be made?
    Correct me if I am wrong, but have'nt the Irish Air Corps being doing this for some time now, as in some decades?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  3. #28
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    You are wrong.

  4. #29
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    Thank God - Finally another operation to reassert the Air Corps as more then a Monday to Friday, 9-5 operation

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    Thank God - Finally another operation to reassert the Air Corps as more then a Monday to Friday, 9-5 operation
    I think everything that could fly from Bal' was up on saturday.
    I see that this is only a ratification of what has been happening for the last few years, but I see an imidiate and quite important catch, the AW 139's are not suitable for the job, if they were I would say have them converted and buy some real troop helicopters to replace them in that role, so roll on a couple of S 92's or similiar.
    And then there must be a suitable fixed wing must be got as well, probally a Casa, but would it be a better use for the G IV then transporting our useless, self-important politicans around?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
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  6. #31
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The AW 139 is ideal for the HEMS role. Similar sized machines have been doing it for years. The EC135 is actually the machine of choice for other HEMS agencies.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The AW 139 is ideal for the HEMS role. Similar sized machines have been doing it for years. The EC135 is actually the machine of choice for other HEMS agencies.
    The Air Corps pair came supplied with equipment for this role, but there is no provision for people to work on the victim, same as the A111 which was used in this role too, i do not believe sufficent space exists for work to be done in the AW139, and I believe ''bigger is better'' in this suitation, however, subject to the opinion of paramadics or/and doctors who have worked in those conditions, I may change my mind. In which case, convert all 5 for this role and buy a grown-up helicopter for troop transport, by all means.
    Last edited by Turkey; 17th January 2012 at 20:23.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
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  8. #33
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    HEMS is not Air Ambulance.

  9. #34
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    the AW 139's are not suitable for the job
    i do not believe sufficent space exists for work to be done in the AW139, and I believe ''bigger is better'' in this suitation
    Not sure where you came up with this tack. The EC135 is 'THE' HEMS machine in Europe and most of the US. The AW139 is substantially bigger then the 135. If it can be done in the 135 it most certainly can be done in a 139.

    PS dont know why you want a bigger troop carrier, if the fleet serviceability was any way reasonable they could carry up to 48 troops per lift, how many more do you want?

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  11. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    Not sure where you came up with this tack. The EC135 is 'THE' HEMS machine in Europe and most of the US. The AW139 is substantially bigger then the 135. If it can be done in the 135 it most certainly can be done in a 139.

    PS dont know why you want a bigger troop carrier, if the fleet serviceability was any way reasonable they could carry up to 48 troops per lift, how many more do you want?
    Bit of head scratchin going on at this point, what way do we define HEMS, if its delivering a pair of paramedics to a incident site then a R22 could do that within limits, if we want to work on people then we are talking about something with room to work and decent headroom. Several years ago an A111 was bring a serious cardiac case to Dublin, the helicopter had to land several times when the stretcher case required urgent attention, in the case of the EC135 stretcher cases are loaded into the vehicle thru clam doors in the rear of the cabin, how much of an improvment is it over the A111. I think as a vehicle for moveing injured people then the EC 135 is probally more then adquate, but what if the situtation demands more. I think we should start near the top, not near the bottem, after all we are talking about assets with a 30 year + life expectancy.
    Anyway, the fixed wing is another issue too.
    As for your second point, I understood at 100% serviceablity[happens from time to time] then the lift capability is 60, but my answer is yes I want more, it has been touched on a few times on this board but never, in my veiw, satisfactoraly, Anyway this is off-topic and I do not want to pi$$ off this moderator , so perhaps another thread?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  12. #36
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Turkey, come on now. The stretcher in the back of an a3 was little more than a hospital trolley. The Lifeport fitted in the back of the current helis is what you would get in a&e, complete with all the machines that go ping.

  13. #37
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    But Turkey, the 139 is much bigger then the 135. I just dont see why you consider that the 139 is not up to the job of HEMS.

  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    But Turkey, the 139 is much bigger then the 135. I just dont see why you consider that the 139 is not up to the job of HEMS.
    I donno to be honest, I am just concerned that those in charge may end up ''fitting up'' a role for a helicopter , rather then considering a helicopter for a role.

    Goldie, I honestly do not understand your last 4 posts on the subject, and therefore am not inclined to comment.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  15. #39
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post

    Goldie, I honestly do not understand your last 4 posts on the subject, and therefore am not inclined to comment.
    Perhaps this thread is not for you then?

  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Perhaps this thread is not for you then?
    I am more inclined to think it's not for you to be honest.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  17. #41
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    Anyway, spotted this while reading up on the web: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...309831059.html
    To be honest this might be a better solution, 'cause when you think on it, why should the military provide air ambulance services ?
    Not entirely my veiw , just a thought.

    I only spotted one dreadful pun myself.
    Last edited by Turkey; 18th January 2012 at 00:21.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
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  18. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    why should the military provide air ambulance services ?
    They have provided it since they got the AIII?

  19. #43
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    I know that, but they also use to provide SAR, anything can change......
    Seriously, there is no reason why they should do so, is there?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  20. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    I am more inclined to think it's not for you to be honest.
    WHat is your difficulty?
    What term do you misunderstand?

    HEMS?
    Lifeport
    Stretcher?
    Heli-cop-ter?

    Try some debate turkey rather than "I honestly do not understand your last 4 posts on the subject"
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    You are wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Turkey, come on now. The stretcher in the back of an a3 was little more than a hospital trolley. The Lifeport fitted in the back of the current helis is what you would get in a&e, complete with all the machines that go ping.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    HEMS is not Air Ambulance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The AW 139 is ideal for the HEMS role. Similar sized machines have been doing it for years. The EC135 is actually the machine of choice for other HEMS agencies.
    Hardly rocket science, is it? The link you quote in post 41 is the transplant debacle waiting to happen again. It has been well discussed here as to why certain private operators are unsuitable for the role. The Air Corps have the proper equipment for the job already(unuaually) it makes sense to let them do the job rather than (similar to the SAR contract) paying a private company to let you use the equipment that you have paid for, so thay can operate the service for you.
    What the Air Corps have been doing in the last few month is not HEMS(Helicopter Emergency Medical Service), it was patient transfer. It was like the Ambulance of old, that had an ambulance driver, and a nurse, and did little more than make sure you didn't fall out of the ambulance on the way to hospital. HEMS is a declared ambulance asset, under the control of ambulance control, that will dispatch a heli to a tasking based on a request via the 999/112 system or other means within the HSE. HEMS crew is usually Pilot, Co-Pilot, Doc and Paramedic. If the AC were available to respond to a call in the last 12 months with a crew like that, with no prior notice, then feel free to correct me.

  21. #45
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    Hi there
    HEMS is time-critical roadside repair and air ambulance is the carriage of a (less time critical)stable patient. The old Alouette was designed to carry two wounded soldiers on basic stretchers across the cabin. The Air Corps never did this, despite it being common practise elsewhere with A IIIs. The Air Corps carried one ambulance-compatible stretcher along the cabin, as well as seating for a doctor, a nurse and a crewman and various bits of medical kit. As for the 139 landing on some of our roads to do a HEMS lift, I'm not so sure about that. It's got a big enough rotor footprint and a strong downwash to rule out a lot of minor/secondary roads.

    regards
    GttC

  22. #46
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    Then land in the field beside the road. It is as Goldie says....not rocket science.

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  24. #47
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    Hey Goldie , a real post, still slightly condecending but not as bad as the post building ''wit'' that went before.
    HEMS; Helicopter emergency midical service.
    Lifeport; Advanced Life Support (ALS) systems engineered for both fixed- and rotary wing aircraft.
    Stretcher; been on them, at least twice that I can remember, once thanks to the Irish Defence Force.
    helicopter; Ugly looking aircraft with whirley bits on top, traveled in them before you were born/hatched/created in a test tube, been in all the ones the Air Corps have ever owned/leased, ect. even been in the air in some of 'em.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  25. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    Then land in the field beside the road. It is as Goldie says....not rocket science.
    I would agree with Tadpole on this, you can detail things right up to the point of impossablity, most of the time it may well be ''fly there and find out''
    That bus crash in Meath [5 fatalities] is a good, if tragic example. Stuff got done, simple as.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  26. #49
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    Stuff got done. Informally. Ad hoc, if you will.

    If the AC were to take up HEMS on a formal basis you can be sure that the service will be subject to a set of formal operating procedures and limitations. Second guessing how far they will go with that is a pointless exercise until we hear more.

  27. #50
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    Jetjock the rules and limitations you refer to are already very well known. They are called JAR OPS 3.
    HEMS are a civilian role. It’s highly regulated within Europe and to operate within the HEMS definition an operator must have an approved HEMS AOC issued by the national authority (IAA). Part 145 approval for both the aircraft maintenance and the maintenance facility. And comply with rules and regulations as set out in JAR OPS in relation to HEMS operations. These rules cover everything from the required pilot hours to operate as PIC of a HEMS aircraft to launch limitations reference weather.

    What is being proposed in Ireland in relation to the Air Corp providing pilots and aircraft while the HSE supply the medical staff is not HEMS. Argue all you want. Agree or disagree.
    It’s more like an Irish solution to an Irish problem.
    Jobs for the boys, who have nothing else to do, except maybe military stuff, which is their job.
    Or a desperate organisation selling their wears to an even more desperate Minister in desperate times. Take your pick.
    But unless it’s operated within the JAR OPS rules its not HEMS.


    BB

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