Air Corps air ambulance

[Clacks]

its got to do with actual civil, public or contrcatual liability. naval, coast guard and customs type vessels re pretty immune in the national interest. U can sue under tort but you will probably lose. This statutory exemption is not available to national air assets

[Clacks]

Question: if there was a strike affecting the Aran Islands ferries and the minister deemed it vital enough to station a Naval vessel in the area to assist in island relief or to provide a temp ferry service (highly unlikely I know) as a naval vessel it would be excempted from compliance with whatever rules/regs that passenger ferries must comply with. Naturally the vessel would be operated under whatever DFR's apply and would be as safe as is possible. Is there a point? Yes. Is this a similar comparison to AC aircraft carrying civilians on a military a/c? The a/c is operated to military rules in as safe a manner possible but at the end if the day it still isn't operated to civil standards (in the naval or the AC scenario)
Either way we know that the EAS is on a trial under military rules to see if the need for such a service exists, IMHO it is badly needed. At the end of the trial the answer will be that we need it, question is, what will happen then?

the question is what happens when the 'trial' is over????

[danno]

its got to do with actual civil, public or contrcatual liability. naval, coast guard and customs type vessels re pretty immune in the national interest. U can sue under tort but you will probably lose. This statutory exemption is not available to national air assets

Interesting distinction,where would naval attached aircraft fall under the above.

[Tadpole]

I see what you are getting at. ATCP falls under a broad spectrum and commercial activity is not defined by cross departmental funding, like Air Ambulance in the Air Corps case

Thats your opinion and your welcome to it. Personally I believe that its a military aircraft carrying out a civil operation which shouldnt happen unless the operation comforms to civil legislation. If the Air Corps are capable of those standards then I have no problem with the doing the op.
As for your much lauded ATCP I hope your not in the Air Corps as you dont even understand your own job description. The 'broad spectrum' of ATCP does not exist. From Military.ie:

To aid the civil power (meaning in practice to assist, when requested, the Garda Síochána, who have primary responsibility for law and order, including the protection of the internal security of the State)

Oh wow look at that, no mention of medical operations only security. The clue is in Aid To the Civil POWER.

As for all the other Government based operations they are relegated to the following:

To carry out other such duties as may be assigned to them from time to time, e.g. search and rescue, air ambulance service, Ministerial air transport service, assistance on the occasion of natural or other disasters, assistance in connection with the maintenance of essential services, assistance in combating oil pollution at sea.

So, its a Government based decision in these tasks. What happens when the Irish Government no longer have control of what they can designate as a military or civil operation?

[DeV]

Thats your opinion and your welcome to it. Personally I believe that its a military aircraft carrying out a civil operation which shouldnt happen unless the operation comforms to civil legislation. If the Air Corps are capable of those standards then I have no problem with the doing the op.


As for your much lauded ATCP I hope your not in the Air Corps as you dont even understand your own job description. The 'broad spectrum' of ATCP does not exist. From Military.ie:

Oh wow look at that, no mention of medical operations only security. The clue is in Aid To the Civil POWER.

As for all the other Government based operations they are relegated to the following:

So, its a Government based decision in these tasks. What happens when the Irish Government no longer have control of what they can designate as a military or civil operation?

Which is your opinion.

There are many tasks within ATCP, you are correct though air ambulance isn't one of them it is ATCA !

ATCP and ATCA are civilian type tasking, they are performed by the Irish military due to the fact that it is cheaper.

[DeV]

Are military aircraft and operations in any country covered by EASA ?

[Tadpole]

All aviation policy and legislation for Europe will be administered by EASA under the jurisdiction of the European Court. The Irish Government will have no say in the matter. While EASA will not directly administer military operations it clearly outlines what types of operation come under civil and therefore European law, the fact that Ireland uses a 'maky up name' to avoid HEMS regulations will no longer work. The Air Corps EAS and AA operations will become strictly regulated under civil HEMS and AA regs. That doesnt preclude the IAC from operating the service they just need an AOC and as everybody here feels the IAC is clearly operating to that standard that wont be a problem now will it?

they are performed by the Irish military due to the fact that it is cheaper.

Depends on what costs you are including. For example have you included the cost to the State of the damaged 135? Under a civil operator with standard insurance this may still have happened but certainly wouldnt be a financial burden on the taxpayer.

[Tadpole]

And just for those who think I am bluffing:

The determining factor to exclude a given aircraft from the scope of the Basic Regulation is the concrete nature of the operation performed – not the aircraft itself, its registry, its owner or its operator. In this sense, the distinction between ‘State aircraft’ / ‘State Operations’ and civil aircraft / operations, which was traditionally based on the registry of the aircraft (civil or military/State) or the nature of the owner / operator (private or public entity), is no longer relevant for the purpose of excluding an aircraft from the scope of the Basic Regulation.

So, when EASA SPA-HEMS is enacted into European Law it will be the type of operation conducted that will determine if EASA regulations are applicable or not. Would anybody like to justify the current EAS and AA operations as military?

[Rhodes]

And just for those who think I am bluffing:


So, when EASA SPA-HEMS is enacted into European Law it will be the type of operation conducted that will determine if EASA regulations are applicable or not. Would anybody like to justify the current EAS and AA operations as military?

What you deliberately excluded from your quote.

•Which types of operations or activities are excluded from EASA's competence?

Article 1(2) of Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 (the Basic Regulation), as amended by Regulation (EC) No 1108/2009 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 21 October 2009, excludes from the Agency’s scope aircraft involved in the execution of military, customs, police, search and rescue, fire fighting, coastguard or similar activities or services.

The common element between these operations are that they serve a public interest and/or exercise a public service or duty of care, which assumes that the service is provided by or under the control and responsibility of a government or public authority of the Member States pursuing the fulfilment of public interest.

Some activities such as mountain rescue are not particularly mentioned in Article 1(2) of the Basic Regulation. Nevertheless, applying the criterion described above, it is assumed that mountain rescue is outside the scope of EASA.

The determining factor to exclude a given aircraft from the scope of the Basic Regulation is the concrete nature of the operation performed – not the aircraft itself, its registry, its owner or its operator. In this sense, the distinction between ‘State aircraft’ / ‘State Operations’ and civil aircraft / operations, which was traditionally based on the registry of the aircraft (civil or military/State) or the nature of the owner / operator (private or public entity), is no longer relevant for the purpose of excluding an aircraft from the scope of the Basic Regulation.

The responsibility for determining whether a certain operation falls within the scope of the Basic Regulation, by applying the criteria of Article 1(2), belongs to the Member States, as part of their general duty to implement EU Law. The Agency will monitor the exercise of this responsibility by the Member States as part of its standardisation responsibilities under the Basic Regulation

[Tadpole]

Did you actually read what you just posted?

I deliberately didnt post what types of operations are excluded because HEMS and AA which we are talking about arent listed. Are they, did I miss something? Please point it out.
The fact is that military operations are exlcluded yes BUT the determination of this exclusion will be based on the operation type NOT who is operating the service or with a military / State aircraft. The AA and EAS operations are considered AA and HEMS and will be regulated as such. Are you really trying to tell me that under European Law these operations will be seen as military? Remember, as stated above (and in what you have posted) the operator being military / State is irrelevant to the determination.

So please justify these two missions as military, I cant wait.

[Rhodes]

Did you actually read what you just posted?

I deliberately didnt post what types of operations are excluded because HEMS and AA which we are talking about arent listed. Are they, did I miss something? Please point it out.
The fact is that military operations are exlcluded yes BUT the determination of this exclusion will be based on the operation type NOT who is operating the service or with a military / State aircraft. The AA and EAS operations are considered AA and HEMS and will be regulated as such. Are you really trying to tell me that under European Law these operations will be seen as military? Remember, as stated above (and in what you have posted) the operator being military / State is irrelevant to the determination.

So please justify these two missions as military, I cant wait.

Where does it say only military tasking's are excluded?
Is customs military? Is policing military? Is search and rescue military? Is fire fighting military? Is the coastguard military? Is mountain rescue military?
Many "similar activities or services" aren't listed such as CAS/MEDEVAC, EAS, maritime patrol, EEZ patrol, pollution patrol, cash escorts, explosives escorts, prisoner escorts, top cover, disaster relief etc but as these tasking's "serve a public interest and/or exercise a public service or duty of care, which assumes that the service is provided by or under the control and responsibility of a government or public authority of the Member States pursuing the fulfilment of public interest" they will be "outside the scope of EASA".

[Tadpole]

Rhodes your clutching at straws.
Yes other operations such as customs etc are excluded but irrelevant to this discussion as it is about whether a military aircraft and crew can perform the EAS operation post implementation of EASA. You have also listed a load of other missions that are not listed such as EAS etc simply because that's what the Air Corps CURRENTLY do. Also irrelevant.

What is relevant is the 'concrete nature of the operation performed', this will be the future sole determination of if an operation falls inside or outside civil regulation. Now if you can convince me that Air Ambulance and HEMS (Call it EAS if you want, the EASA definition of HEMS clearly covers this op) are military operations then they will fall outside civil regulations. However, if the nature of the operation is civilian (irrespective of the operator or registry of the aircraft) then it will fall under civil regulations which must be complied with under EU Law.

Now, can you please show me how AA and HEMS (EAS) are military operations?

[Rhodes]

Rhodes your clutching at straws.
Yes other operations such as customs etc are excluded but irrelevant to this discussion as it is about whether a military aircraft and crew can perform the EAS operation post implementation of EASA. You have also listed a load of other missions that are not listed such as EAS etc simply because that's what the Air Corps CURRENTLY do. Also irrelevant.

What is relevant is the 'concrete nature of the operation performed', this will be the future sole determination of if an operation falls inside or outside civil regulation. Now if you can convince me that Air Ambulance and HEMS (Call it EAS if you want, the EASA definition of HEMS clearly covers this op) are military operations then they will fall outside civil regulations. However, if the nature of the operation is civilian (irrespective of the operator or registry of the aircraft) then it will fall under civil regulations which must be complied with under EU Law.

Now, can you please show me how AA and HEMS (EAS) are military operations?

Where does it say only "military operations" are outside EASA competence? Where does its say all civil operations have to comply with EASA regulations?

[Meatbomb]

IMHO the EAS/HEMS/AA is not a military function. It is operated by the AC on behalf of the HSE. The HSE is civilian, it's staff are civilian, the people that are treated and carried by it are civilian and they land in civilian hospitals. Now all I really care about is that there is a service provided to those that require it but don't try to say its a military operation. The DF provided fire cover to the people of Wexford in the 90's during the fire strike. That was an ATCA task but was not a military operation. Controlled and tasked by civilians.

[Tadpole]

Where does it say only "military operations" are outside EASA competence?

It doesnt. If you bothered to read my last post you will have seen that. The reason I am concentrating on military operations is that it is the only segment RELEVANT to this discussion. Are the Customs or Police currently doing EAS and AA?

Where does its say all civil operations have to comply with EASA regulations?

Once more, from EASA:

The determining factor to exclude a given aircraft from the scope of the Basic Regulation is the concrete nature of the operation performed – not the aircraft itself, its registry, its owner or its operator.

In other words if the nature of the operation does not provide for an exclusion then the operation MUST be conducted under the Basic Regulation which is, funny old thing, civil regulations. Some civil ops may attract an exclusion from the Basic Regulation such as SAR, Fire fighting etc but these operations WILL STILL BE REGULATED by the local Authority. They wont just make up their own rules you know.