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  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    The co-founder of that initiative is also the full time Civil Defence Officer for Cork South, among other things
    And also appears to have been involved in the Community rapid response programme. Would it cost 2m to run the heli annually?

  2. #1202
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    True.However it's not a job they should be doing.Those helis were bought for army co-op.Having one based in Athlone has a knock on impact on how many are available for the task they were purchased for at any one time.
    Air ambulance is done by civi companies in the UK for example,sponsored by private business.
    So if they are not doing Air Ambulance work, what would they really be doing seeing as they are based solely in Ireland. We lost SAR and now we shouldnt be doing Air Ambulance, why have helicopters at all although who would bring the ballot boxes to the islands.

    Air Ambulance is a vital task and they do it well. It keeps the Air Corps in the public eye

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  4. #1203
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    So if they are not doing Air Ambulance work, what would they really be doing seeing as they are based solely in Ireland. We lost SAR and now we shouldnt be doing Air Ambulance, why have helicopters at all although who would bring the ballot boxes to the islands.

    Air Ambulance is a vital task and they do it well. It keeps the Air Corps in the public eye
    Military flying. What they were bought for. The reason you can stick a GPMG in the door.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  6. #1204
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    If we are doing military flying we should have proper military helicopters and not just civil painted green. There is a massive difference between the standards on a Blackhawk compared to the standard of an AW139. Sticking a MG on a family car does not turn it into a tank!

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  8. #1205
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    If we are doing military flying we should have proper military helicopters and not just civil painted green. There is a massive difference between the standards on a Blackhawk compared to the standard of an AW139. Sticking a MG on a family car does not turn it into a tank!
    But unfortunately we paid €48.4m for 4 X AW139 in 2005

    Mexico got a FMS agreement for 3 x UH60M last year for USD 110m (€102 m) and I assume that is ex VAT

  9. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Military flying. What they were bought for. The reason you can stick a GPMG in the door.
    Ok on a day to day basis what does that mean? I could understand them being exclusively for military use if they were being deployed overseas as part of our peacekeeping role or in a permanent security role ( maybe this will happen when Britain leaves the EU), but besides training they seem to me not to have a defined function. Doesnt ATCP and the Air Ambulance and flying the Garda Helicopters give the aircrews value rather than just flying the odd training flight

  10. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    Ok on a day to day basis what does that mean? I could understand them being exclusively for military use if they were being deployed overseas as part of our peacekeeping role or in a permanent security role ( maybe this will happen when Britain leaves the EU), but besides training they seem to me not to have a defined function. Doesnt ATCP and the Air Ambulance and flying the Garda Helicopters give the aircrews value rather than just flying the odd training flight
    See the tender
    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...UH-Competition

    TBH it isn't the eating up of the helo or the hours that I'd be worried about (HSE foot the bill don't they?).

    It is a priority tasking and therefore the aircrew (who are in very short supply) aren't available for other missions/taskings
    Last edited by DeV; 25th January 2017 at 12:40.

  11. #1208
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    See the tender
    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...UH-Competition

    TBH it isn't the eating up of the helo or the hours that I'd be worried about (HSE foot the bill don't they?).

    It is a priority tasking and therefore the aircrew (who are in very short supply) aren't available for other missions/taskings
    I understand what a military helicopters roles are and I understand that people would prefer we had the Helicopters solely for military use ,but in reality Helicopters in the context the Defence Forces and their sole military use would I imagine be extremely rare and I would presume most military use is planned ahead,
    Is the lack of Trained crew partly effected by the perceived role of the Air Corp that it is solely based at home with little or no chance of overseas service?
    Do many pilots finish their contract or can they still buy their way out?

  12. #1209
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    Believe me.There is more than enough work to do for the crews and the airframes between the Army and navy just training alone. That's before we talk operational task's which there are plenty of also but we are not going to discuss here.The snag is to keep one Airframe on duty for HEMS means half the fleet unavailable for training.Now ask yourself what the other half of the fleet is doing or what they might be on standby to do and that means that the units that want to use the much vaunted "Military co-op" heli's cant.
    Thanks to HEMS we are right back to the days of SAR and not having Heli's available for anything other than tasks that should be contracted out.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  14. #1210
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    elieve me.There is more than enough work to do for the crews and the airframes between the Army and navy just training alone. That's before we talk operational task's which there are plenty of also but we are not going to discuss here.The snag is to keep one Airframe on duty for HEMS means half the fleet unavailable for training.Now ask yourself what the other half of the fleet is doing or what they might be on standby to do and that means that the units that want to use the much vaunted "Military co-op" heli's cant.
    Thanks to HEMS we are right back to the days of SAR and not having Heli's available for anything other than tasks that should be contracted out.
    One of the better posts on IMO in recent time
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  16. #1211
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    In my opinion, many people in this godforsaken country, for the most part, automatically assume that because we aren't fast roping operators into compounds in the afghan theatre or "heli-vacing" out lone snipers from war torn LZ's, that if it wasnt for HEMS, the helis would sit there gathering dust.

    This is Ireland today and the result of decades of Govt's (and by extension the civilian population), pandering to a fake neutrality, treating the defence forces in general and specifically the aircorps with derision and ridicule, as kids with toys, as a token force with no real purpose. result is major underfunding that matches the misunderstanding
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  18. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    The snag is to keep one Airframe on duty for HEMS means half the fleet unavailable for training.
    So, are you still looking at 33% availability on cabs? If 3 are tied up on HEMS/EAS does that mean the remaining 3 are tied up covering Air Ambulance from Bal?

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  20. #1213
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    Besides EAS/Air Ambulance and ATCP VIP transport and the Transport of the ARW at very short notice if required operationally, then I assume the rest of the use for the Helicopter would be centred around Training and exercises , most of which are planned ahead and would be based on the assets available. I am trying to think of a real time operational scenario that isnt a "what if" that would require the movement of 40/50 troops or equipment within the Island at short notice
    The loss of SAR was a big mistake in my opinion it took away an of operational experience that could never be replicated by training and it is an area thw Air Corp would have excelled in and did for many years with unsuitable equipment. Most of that experience must be gone by now. At least EAS gives operational experience to crews. You can train all you like but unless you can get the operational experience to use that training then its value deminishes.
    I am not trying to protray the Air Corp as "boys with toys" they ae extremely professional, but would they rather be flying EAS or dropping troops into the Glen

  21. #1214
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    ...but would they rather be flying EAS or dropping troops into the Glen...
    if they'd rather be doing EAS then they are in the wrong job.

    your point about the schedualing of helicopter based exercises rather misses the very obvious point that you can't schedule a large scale exercise involving helicopters if those helicopters have already been tapped for the next year by air ambulance tasks.

    when was the last time an RBS70 Battery did a rapid deployment exercise?

    when was the last time a 105mm LG battery practiced a 'shoot and scoot' exercise?

    when was the last time the AC practiced a no-notice, Coy strength troop movement?

    when was the last time the AC practiced a large scale deployment exercise - abandoned airfield, tents, tech spt, log spt, ATC etc..?

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  23. #1215
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    Besides EAS/Air Ambulance and ATCP VIP transport and the Transport of the ARW at very short notice if required operationally, then I assume the rest of the use for the Helicopter would be centred around Training and exercises , most of which are planned ahead and would be based on the assets available. I am trying to think of a real time operational scenario that isnt a "what if" that would require the movement of 40/50 troops or equipment within the Island at short notice
    The loss of SAR was a big mistake in my opinion it took away an of operational experience that could never be replicated by training and it is an area thw Air Corp would have excelled in and did for many years with unsuitable equipment. Most of that experience must be gone by now. At least EAS gives operational experience to crews. You can train all you like but unless you can get the operational experience to use that training then its value deminishes.
    I am not trying to protray the Air Corp as "boys with toys" they ae extremely professional, but would they rather be flying EAS or dropping troops into the Glen
    You seem to have no understanding of the phrase "operational experience".

    SAR and EAS while they may provide flying experience, provide nothing at all resembling operational experience for a military air arm. They are civilian roles and must remain such.

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  25. #1216
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    Thing is training is not just getting the initial training, it is recurrency and experience.

    That "training" could actually be support for army training or Exs (eg Landing Point Commanders Cse, lifting troops to the Glen, landing a recce detachment, debusing drills for recruits, simulated CASEVAC during MREs, etc etc).

    Apart from EAS your also going to have a duty 24/7 helicopter in the Don for other taskings (including non-EAS air ambulance). You'll probably also have 1 in maintenance, so that is 50% of the fleet.

    @apc a terrorist incident could require moving the ERU personnel (or ARW platoon) at no notice.

    But as I previously said it is frightening just how few pilots the AC have on the establishment (in pilot slots no doubt they call on people in office jobs as required (who are pilots who have currency). The strength is even worse!

  26. #1217
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    How many times has someone been on ex here and told there would be heli ops only to have the AC have to pull out or send less assets?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  27. #1218
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    How many times has someone been on ex here and told there would be heli ops only to have the AC have to pull out or send less assets?
    I can only speak as RDF but if its agreed and on the plan they try their absolute hardest to be there in fairness ; even for our planned ex's from the 80s onwards they helped if they could. full-on SAR in the 80s and 90s took up a lot of their time though, those Alouettes saw hard use !
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  28. #1219
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    Up to the retirement of the Alouettes 99% of the time you looked for a Heli the answer was no as they were either off doing SAR or Air ambulance or they were down for maintenance.
    Then we had the brief period before the current head shed of the AC(who to the best of my knowledge is a SAR enthusiast and has no interest in developing the AC heli fleet as a military asset) put the AC back doing civvy jobs.When helis were available for everything.
    Now we are back to square one. A lot of good pilots have left as they were keen on developing military skill sets and that enthusiasm has been p***ed on.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  29. #1220
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    Maybe CHC could tender to provide a fleet of helicopters for training, making sure our helicopters are readily available for military operations ( whatever they are) . Only thing I read above is Training.

  30. #1221
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    That's not how tenders work either I'm afraid.

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  32. #1222
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    A fair bit of overall DF ouput is civvy orientated. Given that potential civvy uses are highlighted by the Df to clinch/persuade/secure purchase of ships etc then one should not be too surprised when the assets get used in that role.

  33. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    That's not how tenders work either I'm afraid.
    Nothing wrong with an unsolicited bid though...

    British International have been providing a pair S-61's on the Falklands for training, operations and logistic support for years...

  34. #1224
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    Your average Irish Dept civil service type wouldn't know something worthwhile if it wasn't spelled out to him/her months in advance unfortunately. While there is a very good argument to be made for outsourcing heli training, anything unsolicited would be a waste of time.

    Those S61's definitely provide good VFM. Seem to remember deck landings on a River class?

  35. #1225
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    Don't expect anything to change as the DoH/HSE have ruled out acquiring a heli of their own. The Air Corps would like nothing more than to get their aircraft back.

    There has been a few good things that has come out of operating the EAS. The Air Corps has learned a great deal and is now one of the most experienced forces in the world in carrying out Medevac's. Its far from Mali but the experience has been invaluable which could be transferred to operating a Casevac/Medevac detachment supporting an overseas mission.
    The current GOC AC has said its a big ambition of his to get Air Corps aircraft overseas mentioning Casevac/Medevac as one of the possible missions, which is ideally suited to Air Corps.

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