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  1. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    The Air Corps has learned a great deal and is now one of the most experienced forces in the world in carrying out Medevac's.
    While it's good to hear a new skillset has been developed, to say that the IAC is one of the most experienced forces in the carrying out medevacs is just something I'm not going to swallow.

    It's a long way from a road side in Leitrim to Helmand Province. Under fire. In brown out conditions.

    Nope, apples and oranges.

    The ability to fly medevacs in an active combat zone is only achieved by first developing an ability to operate in an active combat zone. A long way to go on that front, equipment wise at the very least.

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  3. #1227
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    When you reflect further it can be recalled that ARW precision rifles (very milty items) got pressed into action last year to dispatch mad bulls/cows .

  4. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    While it's good to hear a new skillset has been developed, to say that the IAC is one of the most experienced forces in the carrying out medevacs is just something I'm not going to swallow.

    It's a long way from a road side in Leitrim to Helmand Province. Under fire. In brown out conditions.

    Nope, apples and oranges.

    The ability to fly medevacs in an active combat zone is only achieved by first developing an ability to operate in an active combat zone. A long way to go on that front, equipment wise at the very least.
    We are not taking CSAR here, the Medevac or Tacevac as its often called now, in an operational area such as Lebanon, Kosovo and Mali operate in a similar fashion to the EAS service. There was an Irish based commercial company operating Aero Medevacs in Kosovo and Mali. The Air Corps experience can be transferred to operating in an overseas mission.

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  6. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    We are not taking CSAR here, the Medevac or Tacevac as its often called now, in an operational area such as Lebanon, Kosovo and Mali operate in a similar fashion to the EAS service. There was an Irish based commercial company operating Aero Medevacs in Kosovo and Mali. The Air Corps experience can be transferred to operating in an overseas mission.
    Sorry, this whole line of thought is complete bollocks.

    The skill and experience set that the AC has developed while doing the AES task broadly equate to the pre-lunch on the first day syllabus of a 6 month 'operating a helicopter in a shitty place and flying your people in and out of a very shitty place' course.

    The AC would have learnt more about deployment and militarily applicable flying in a single two week trip to West Freugh or Carlisle Airport on a Joint Warrior exercise (to which they are invited every six months...) than it has learnt in the whole time it's been doing EAS.

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  8. #1230
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Sorry, this whole line of thought is complete bollocks.

    The skill and experience set that the AC has developed while doing the AES task broadly equate to the pre-lunch on the first day syllabus of a 6 month 'operating a helicopter in a shitty place and flying your people in and out of a very shitty place' course.

    The AC would have learnt more about deployment and militarily applicable flying in a single two week trip to West Freugh or Carlisle Airport on a Joint Warrior exercise (to which they are invited every six months...) than it has learnt in the whole time it's been doing EAS.
    - aircrew operating helos in confined spaces
    - AC EMTs have had experience with casualties
    - AC EMTs have had experience operating with APs
    - a long term offsite deployment (or be it in a manned barracks not too far away)

    Let's not forget that a fair percentage of current AC pilots will have been commissioned since the AC lost SAR

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  10. #1231
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    What level of medevac is this Irish company providing? Are they contracted by the mission and based in country, capable of picking up an injured party in a firefight? Or are they available to fly into a secure airport and repatriate a casualty?

    Tacevac, or whatever you wish to call it involves the ability to fly into hostile areas and pick up casualties under fire if necessary. While you may be talking about low to medium threat areas, don't think that nice Mr Jihadi is not going to target you because of that red cross you applied to the side of the helicopter before you deployed, or a landmine won't explode under the main wheels for the same reason.

    It is dangerous thinking to define the EAS experiment as a militarily transferable skill. It isn't. It might be a politically easy sell but even the army sends armoured ambulances overseas.

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  12. #1232
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    - aircrew operating helos in confined spaces
    - AC EMTs have had experience with casualties
    - AC EMTs have had experience operating with APs
    - a long term offsite deployment (or be it in a manned barracks not too far away)

    Let's not forget that a fair percentage of current AC pilots will have been commissioned since the AC lost SAR
    You think the IAC needed EAS after 50 years plus of rotary operations to gain experience operating helos in confined locations?

    A long term off site deployment? It starts at sunrise in Baldonnel and ends before sunset in the same place.
    Last edited by Jetjock; 27th January 2017 at 12:02.

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  14. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    You think the IAC needed EAS after 50 years plus of rotary operations to gain experience operating helos in confined locations?

    A long term off site deployment? It starts at sunrise in Baldonnel and ends before sunset in the same place.
    Very often the areas used for training are recces before hand and well known for (as you say previous experience). The EAS missions are all across the country. They involve landing on roads, in fields, on sports pitches, etc.

    Open to correction but AFAIK, the EAS helo doesn't return to Baldonnel every night.

    Why is EAS mission limited to daylight? Because international statistics show that this type of mission (ie flying to an accident scene to a hospital) is among the most dangerous types of flying in the world.

    AFAIK, Athlone has an inflatable hanger, no ATC, not sure about CRS (there would have to be something), it isn't an AC installation.

  15. #1234
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    Here is a movie on Netflicks that appears to give a good view of some of the challenges presented by a tactical casavac by helicopter (and potential casualty numbers involved).

    https://www.netflix.com/title/80071907

    Just throwing it in there to focus minds on the requirements and chalenges of medevac outside of a civilian setting, not to start a critique of the film itself.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  17. #1235
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    EAS Helicopter is permanently based in Athlone, you can see that from their facebook page. Airframes are changed every few days as they are visible on flight radar 24.

    https://www.facebook.com/Air-Corps-112-499155760107215/

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  19. #1236
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    Whenever I see a pic with the ****ing skis it just drives me up the wall. ****ing useless racehorse owner helos.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  21. #1237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    What level of medevac is this Irish company providing? Are they contracted by the mission and based in country, capable of picking up an injured party in a firefight? Or are they available to fly into a secure airport and repatriate a casualty?

    Tacevac, or whatever you wish to call it involves the ability to fly into hostile areas and pick up casualties under fire if necessary. While you may be talking about low to medium threat areas, don't think that nice Mr Jihadi is not going to target you because of that red cross you applied to the side of the helicopter before you deployed, or a landmine won't explode under the main wheels for the same reason.

    It is dangerous thinking to define the EAS experiment as a militarily transferable skill. It isn't. It might be a politically easy sell but even the army sends armoured ambulances overseas.
    The Irish based company is Starlite Aviation, they've been contracted by the UN and EU to provide helicopter support to a number of their missions mostly in Africa. In Mali they are contracted to provide a medevac service for the EUTM using two BK117's replacing the Belgium Air Force in the role.

    The DF's overseas missions are Peace Support Operations, while they are areas of conflict its low intensity conflicts such as Lebanon where the Italians operate UNIFIL's sole aviation unit, although as I've mentioned before on here the Spanish agreed to send two helicopters to Lebanon but reneged because they didn't get the Force Commanders job. Now who could provide two helicopters to Lebanon? It is planned that a review of Ireland's commitment to the UN Peacekeeping Capability Readiness System (PCRS) will take place sometime this year where its likely the Air Corps will be included in it.

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  23. #1238
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    Thanks to recent decrees from Herr Trump, all UN Peackeeping missions are at risk.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  24. #1239
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    We contracted out MEDEVAC/CASEVAC in Chad

  25. #1240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    What level of medevac is this Irish company providing? Are they contracted by the mission and based in country, capable of picking up an injured party in a firefight? Or are they available to fly into a secure airport and repatriate a casualty?

    Tacevac, or whatever you wish to call it involves the ability to fly into hostile areas and pick up casualties under fire if necessary. While you may be talking about low to medium threat areas, don't think that nice Mr Jihadi is not going to target you because of that red cross you applied to the side of the helicopter before you deployed, or a landmine won't explode under the main wheels for the same reason.

    It is dangerous thinking to define the EAS experiment as a militarily transferable skill. It isn't. It might be a politically easy sell but even the army sends armoured ambulances overseas.
    Natos stanag 3204 clearly differentiates between tacevac, as Rhodes outlined and forward aeromedical evacuation (fame) which is what you're thinking of. The truth be told the USA is the only nato country that can really carry out fame at an intense level, although others have improved their capability. Tacevac which would be something like moving a casualty between a role one or a patrol base to a role two or three hospital is well within the capability of the bluffwaffe and the aw 139 even overseas

    The pedro or dust off in Afghanistan is only used when the patient evacuation coordination cell at brigade level thinks that it's absolutely necessary, and you'll find that the perimeter is secured by at least a platoon, swept for ieds, there is an istar and c2 plane coordinating, the evac heli is escorted and there will be fast close air support in the area. Not taking away from the crews, but their opponents would be armed with 7.62 fired from a distance, an opponent with manpads and or 23mm on technicals would Pose a far more serious problems. Only the Americans really have the capability to do fame at a battlefield level.
    Last edited by paul g; 30th January 2017 at 20:39.

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  27. #1241
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    For anyone that thinks that pilot retention and training isn't an issue in the AC

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0205/85...ants-children/

  28. #1242
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    Also makes reference to ATC shortfalls .

  29. #1243
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Also makes reference to ATC shortfalls .
    Yes AC ATC

    there is a tender out external training for AC ATC students (obviously having problems doing the internally)

  30. #1244
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    Should be no shortage of candidates given the juicy allowance payable.

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  32. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    For anyone that thinks that pilot retention and training isn't an issue in the AC

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0205/85...ants-children/
    The article says "fixed wing aircraft".

    This just isn't an Air Corps problem, its a Defence Forces wide problem that is only going to get worse. Far to many highly trained personnel have been lost in the brain drain this last few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Yes AC ATC

    there is a tender out external training for AC ATC students (obviously having problems doing the internally)
    Students are sent to a collage for a number of weeks as part of the course, that's what the tender is possibly for or it could be a tender for testing applicants to be selected for the course, most of the training and hour building is done in house.

    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Should be no shortage of candidates given the juicy allowance payable.
    If the pay was so great then there wouldn't be a retention problem. There will be no shortage of applicants, just need the right caliber of people to pass selection and the course.
    Then there is the issue of sending ATC Airmen on a seven month PNCO course, its just stupid and a waste of resources in my opinion.

  33. #1246
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Should be no shortage of candidates given the juicy allowance payable.
    No shortage of applications but it isn't the wages (unless they haven't done their research) it's the training

  34. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    The article says "fixed wing aircraft".
    and?

    This just isn't an Air Corps problem, its a Defence Forces wide problem that is only going to get worse. Far to many highly trained personnel have been lost in the brain drain this last few years.
    Yes but say your training COE engineers, they can't double/triple job etc (which will long term effect retention) but a pilot has a max FDP, he has to get a certain amount of rest, etc etc



    Students are sent to a collage for a number of weeks as part of the course, that's what the tender is possibly for or it could be a tender for testing applicants to be selected for the course, most of the training and hour building is done in house.
    It's phase 1 so it could be



    If the pay was so great then there wouldn't be a retention problem. There will be no shortage of applicants, just need the right caliber of people to pass selection and the course.
    Then there is the issue of sending ATC Airmen on a seven month PNCO course, its just stupid and a waste of resources in my opinion.
    +1

  35. #1248
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    Why is the Air Corps involved in transplant transport in the first place.?

    Remember that ungrateful Guard up in Donegal who was badmouthing them cause they where not at his beck and call
    Last edited by sofa; 5th February 2017 at 22:53.

  36. #1249
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Why is the Air Corps involved in transplant transport in the first place.?
    I guess cause when it was needed in the start they were the only ones could do it, and now it's just there as a legacy.

  37. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Why is the Air Corps involved in transplant transport in the first place.?

    Remember that ungrateful Guard up in Donegal who was badmouthing them cause they where not at his beck and call
    Because they are sometimes time critical, not even a weekly occurrence (35 Fixed wing missions in 2015), commercial operators (unless under contract) generally have higher response times, they are expensive.

    Related

    https://www.hiqa.ie/system/files/Mea...ern-Report.pdf

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