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  1. #1301
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    What are these words "proper military" I see before me? Are you trying to say that painting something green is insufficient to make it military?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  3. #1302
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    What are these words "proper military" I see before me? Are you trying to say that painting something green is insufficient to make it military?
    *looks innocent*

  4. #1303
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    We have 6 AW 139, right? Paint 5 bright orance and fit them out permanently as the best air ambulance you can imagine. paint one in a civilian govt livery and fit it out as a VIP transport.

    Then replace them with a 10t chopper that also replaces the S92s for SAR and bring back SAR to the Air Corps. And buy some more of the same chopper for when we have a ship to put them on (I vote Cougar, but AW 149 and *hawk are options too. AW149 would probably benefit from significant communality with AW 139)

  5. #1304
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    You were going grand until you decided to bring SAR back to the air corps.
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  6. #1305
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    You were going grand until you decided to bring SAR back to the air corps.
    Why not? edumacte me please I am seriously interested.

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    The reason i suggested it is that this kind of thing is a state function that should be fulfilled byt the state. If the AC can't fulfill it we need to look at why.

  8. #1307
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    Because we have a Coast Guard. That is their function.
    It is a secondary military tasking, and part of ATCA. Every other military is moving away from providing Frontline SAR.
    When the Air Corps had it, it could do little else operationally.
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  10. #1308
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Because we have a Coast Guard. That is their function.
    It is a secondary military tasking, and part of ATCA. Every other military is moving away from providing Frontline SAR.
    When the Air Corps had it, it could do little else operationally.
    And when we were looking a proper medium lift helos they were really just for SAR

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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Because we have a Coast Guard. That is their function.
    It is a secondary military tasking, and part of ATCA. Every other military is moving away from providing Frontline SAR.
    When the Air Corps had it, it could do little else operationally.
    Yeah, my gripe is more with the helos being run by a private company than with which arm of the government flies them. Given that companies need to make a profit and the state doesn't it rarely is cheaper ll told.

  12. #1310
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    Hi Guys who ever operates it they are both carrying out a wonderful lifesaving service, yesterday at UHG Galway Air Corps 112 arrived in with a patient, they lifted off the pad to allow Rescue 115 land, Rescue 115 lifted from the pad to the football pitch to allow Air Corps 112 land again to collect their Paramedic then lifted and Rescue 118 landed, three in at the one time. There are pictures from UHG on the below links, scroll through them as there are a good few pics.

    https://www.facebook.com/helimoves/?...KISdnf_KCjaHG8

    https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/?hc_..._4LgFYRi99Tdic
    Last edited by Brian McGrath; 12th March 2018 at 14:54.

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  14. #1311
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Because we have a Coast Guard. That is their function.
    It is a secondary military tasking, and part of ATCA. Every other military is moving away from providing Frontline SAR.
    When the Air Corps had it, it could do little else operationally.
    We have a CG of only 60 full time positions with ZERO aviation experience and a private company providing SAR. The cart before the Donkey! Only 3.5 years until the contract renewal!! I'm guessing there'll be changes considering the tragic events out West. The whole SAR picture needs to be looked at. S92s are doing less and less offshore jobs and more Air Amp, I don't think anyone with any experience can argue that the 92 is a suitable HEMS aircraft! My guess (I accept I'll get abuse for this) is a new company will win the tender with AW139s (now at GTOW of 7000kg) and man 4 bases with that. Makes operational sense and more importantly to the company shareholders is makes financial sense. I'm guess the MRT would also be happy not getting knocked over with 92 downwash. As for the Air Corps taking back a base, surely this has to be on the cards. With 3.5 years to new operator (potentially) the discussions need to start happening now. My opinion, it would be great to see 4 AWSAR AW139s(or similar) Sligo/Shannon/Waterford with AC139 in Bal with an additional 3 HEMS EC135 Sligo/Galway/Kerry.

  15. #1312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heligun View Post
    We have a CG of only 60 full time positions with ZERO aviation experience and a private company providing SAR. The cart before the Donkey! Only 3.5 years until the contract renewal!! I'm guessing there'll be changes considering the tragic events out West. The whole SAR picture needs to be looked at. S92s are doing less and less offshore jobs and more Air Amp, I don't think anyone with any experience can argue that the 92 is a suitable HEMS aircraft! My guess (I accept I'll get abuse for this) is a new company will win the tender with AW139s (now at GTOW of 7000kg) and man 4 bases with that. Makes operational sense and more importantly to the company shareholders is makes financial sense. I'm guess the MRT would also be happy not getting knocked over with 92 downwash. As for the Air Corps taking back a base, surely this has to be on the cards. With 3.5 years to new operator (potentially) the discussions need to start happening now. My opinion, it would be great to see 4 AWSAR AW139s(or similar) Sligo/Shannon/Waterford with AC139 in Bal with an additional 3 HEMS EC135 Sligo/Galway/Kerry.
    The AW139 is not a medium lift & range a/c. It doesn’t have the range to do missions into the Atlantic like the S92.

    The AC don’t have the personnel to do 1 a/c 24/7 SAR

    As an aside things aren’t looking good for Waterford Airport (again)

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  17. #1313
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The AW139 is not a medium lift & range a/c. It doesn’t have the range to do missions into the Atlantic like the S92.

    The AC don’t have the personnel to do 1 a/c 24/7 SAR

    As an aside things aren’t looking good for Waterford Airport (again)
    The Range of responsibility along with the previous tender started the Aircraft must have ability to go to 200NM and remain there for 45min. The newer AW139 has over 4 hr endurance, that easily makes the tender requirement. 189 would be even better. The Air Corps man the EAS, I'm sure with a 3 year work up they'd easily have the crewing requirement.

    As an aside things aren’t looking good for Waterford Airport-- Where has this been stated? Public or Rumour mil...

  18. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heligun View Post
    The Range of responsibility along with the previous tender started the Aircraft must have ability to go to 200NM and remain there for 45min. The newer AW139 has over 4 hr endurance, that easily makes the tender requirement. 189 would be even better. The Air Corps man the EAS, I'm sure with a 3 year work up they'd easily have the crewing requirement.

    As an aside things aren’t looking good for Waterford Airport-- Where has this been stated? Public or Rumour mil...
    And how many casualties can it lift at that range compared to S92?

    Why is a medium lift needed in the Dublin region? A lot of ferries and aircraft carry a lot of people across the Irish Sea (and beyond)
    The problem is the AC can’t retain sufficient pilots or techs.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...39705?mode=amp

  19. #1315
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    First to tackle the elephant in the room, private companies operating SAR at sea, the facts do not support this. Just because some people to our east have decided to do this does not mean it should be good for us (remember they voted for Brexit!!!) And looking at the reality only the UK and The Netherlands have opted for a private only service the rest are:
    • Belgium: Belgian Air Component
    • Canada: Royal Canadian Air Force
    • Cyprus: Cyprus Air Force
    • Denmark: Royal Danish Air Force
    • Estonia: Estonian Border Guard
    • Finland: Finnish Border Guard
    • Germany: German Navy, German Air Force
    • Iceland: Icelandic Coast Guard
    • Italy: Guardia Costiera, Italian Air Force, Italian Navy
    • Malta: Armed Force of Malta
    • Netherlands: NHV (on contract)
    • Norway: Royal Norwegian Air Force
    • Portugal: Portuguese Navy, Portuguese Air Force, ANPC
    • Poland: Polish Navy
    • Spain: SASEMAR, Spanish Navy, Spanish Air Force, Servicio Maritimo de la Guardia Civil
    • Sweden: Swedish Maritime Administration
    • UK: Bristow Helicopters
    • USA: USCG
    But before anyone things of having the AC run a SAR service let alone a Air Ambulance there needs to be serious re-organisation. A good SAR crew takes many years of hard training to become proficient, not something private companies are willing to pay for, thus a lot of the crew are ex-military. People who have gained their skills in a military organisation and now have moved to the private sector.

    As for A/C, I would hope most of us remember a little event called "Fastnet", a nice summers regatta race around the Fastnet Rock. It is for such events that a SAR helicopter needs to be sized. An AW139 will not cut it when you fit it with all the fit it would need for offshore rescue, radar, FLIR operator station etc. Throw in a crew of 4 and there is little room left to pick anyone up. Since that eventful day the number of hobby captains anchored in nice marinas around our shores has increased massively and so the potential need. It does not take a problem with a ferry to overload the capacity of the SAR service, a typical sailing yacht can easily have 8 souls on board. For that you need something the size of the S92 or even better would be the AW101.

    The question of air ambulance is something different, many European countries have either a state sponsored system or one financed by private organisations such as the ADAC (German AA/RAC), or a mix of both. Here the size need is smaller as usually the number to be rescued is less and there is no need for radar and the associated systems. A typical helicopter for this is the H145, which btw is less than half the price of an AW139 with similar patient carrying capacity. Given the size of the Irish market it is unlikely that a private network could be financed and thus a state funded system is needed. Just as the AC provides the GASU with crews there is no reason why the AC could not have a similar SLA with the NAS.

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  21. #1316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heligun View Post
    The Range of responsibility along with the previous tender started the Aircraft must have ability to go to 200NM and remain there for 45min. The newer AW139 has over 4 hr endurance, that easily makes the tender requirement. 189 would be even better. The Air Corps man the EAS, I'm sure with a 3 year work up they'd easily have the crewing requirement...
    You need to take care with maximum values for helicopters more so than with aircraft.
    The AW139 does have a maximum range of 573nm, but that is with maximum fuel, aux fuel, no reserves and 2 crew. Given that the typical crew will be 4 and that the A/C will have to pick-up passengers the AW139 would struggle to meet the 200nm range and 45min station time.
    Standard fuel is 1568lt (1254kg) and aux is 500lt (400kg), 2 rescue crew are 200kg and you can easily add another 100kg for SAR kit. Given that the AW139 only has a payload capacity of 2200kg, this does not give you much capacity to pick people up. The additional 300kg from the crew and kit will have already reduced your range as the A/C will have burned more on the outbound leg making the 573nm impossible to reach. And remember the aircraft will have more weight onboard for the return legs once it has picked up those that had to be rescued. Factor in head-wind and reserves and you soon see the true range drop dramatically.

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  23. #1317
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    You are also forgetting the profound difference between civil and military is rank and manpower; a civvy SAR station has a couple of pilots, a couple of mechs(one of whom is usually an avo/B2), a pair of back seaters and a storeman on a shift. All of them will routinely multi-task and will drive/cook/file paper/make tea/help with kit/carry stuff/move stuff and will freely interact with each other. A military SAR station will have much more manpower on it's establishment, all operating on a rigid, divisive rank structure and a much more expensive pay scale than is commonly realised, no cross-rank multi-tasking, no shared eating, no shared driving (in the military system, you have to have duty drivers. Pilots do not drive in the AC, EVER. This is a critical issue on a small SAR station, when all hands are needed to be able to move people and kit in the Station van, yet the AC does not allow most of it's staff to do something as simple as moving a van or a tug.), so this generates a need for duty drivers, another layer to be dealt with. In the AC, because so much is deferred to NCO rank in technical trades, you end up having Sergeant or Flight Sergeant techs being responsible on paper for doing the kind of basic tasks that a simple civvy B1 mech or B2 avo does as a matter of routine. The military stores and supply system is also ponderous and rank-heavy compared to a civvy set-up. When a paper establishment dictates that the Stores system has a CQMS as the post holder, as a minimum, then you are in trouble, whereas a civvy system just calls him (or her), "Storeman" and there are no airs and graces attached. The military system is also subject to people being posted out, going on courses, being grabbed for other duties, separate Messing, separate and inefficient Clothing supply, wildly different terms and conditions such as pay, annual leave, allowances and so on. Imagine telling a SAR guy that he can't do his shift because he has to do his Annual range practise on a wet Tuesday in January or that he is required to march down O'Connell Street in Easter and spend two weeks before that date, practising for it. That's why civvy SAR systems are efficient, because it slashes all the Military bull out of the system and people have time to think about their actual job instead of worrying about the 90% of crap that militaries regard as essential.

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  25. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    First to tackle the elephant in the room, private companies operating SAR at sea, the facts do not support this. Just because some people to our east have decided to do this does not mean it should be good for us (remember they voted for Brexit!!!) And looking at the reality only the UK and The Netherlands have opted for a private only service
    its been at least partially contracted here since 1991 with Irish Helicopters


    But before anyone things of having the AC run a SAR service let alone a Air Ambulance there needs to be serious re-organisation. A good SAR crew takes many years of hard training to become proficient, not something private companies are willing to pay for, thus a lot of the crew are ex-military. People who have gained their skills in a military organisation and now have moved to the private sector.

    Given the size of the Irish market it is unlikely that a private network could be financed and thus a state funded system is needed. Just as the AC provides the GASU with crews there is no reason why the AC could not have a similar SLA with the NAS.
    The issue is lack of personnel (and loss of experience/flying hours

    Between 2010 and 2015, the AC lost 49 pilots with a total of nearly 126,500 flying hours between them

    In 2016, the AC was operating with 80% of the pilots it should have. The number of pilots it should have does take account of 24/7 GASU ops, but not EAS.

    See page xiii
    http://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-conte...ACO-part-1.pdf

    Also if we are talking about using AC a/c that would make them (and aircrew) unavailable for other tasks. If we are talking AC a/c, the AC only has around 50-60% of the techs it should have to maintain its A/c.

  26. #1319
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    Said it before.Saying it again.
    SAR= Civilian coastguard.
    EAS= Civvy sponsored and operated.

    AC= Military.Get good at doing what is the primary tasking ands stop pining for 30 years ago!!!!
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  27. #1320
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    The AC don't realistically use their pilot and tech manpower, because , like so many other militaries and govt aviation, the personnel concerned are constantly being robbed for other things or some of the people concerned don't want to continue doing it (flxing or flying) and are doing something else, especially the further up the food chain they get. As a common example, pilots are routinely rotated to ground tours and the only flying they do on a ground tour is to keep currency up. Mechs were routinely rotated/detailed to the depot to train aptces in soldiering! No airline or civvy flying organisation would tolerate routinely moving skilled people out of their prime function for years or months at a time. At least the RAF have a system of professional aircrew (pilot) called the Professional Aircrew Spine (PAS), which keeps pilots flying for as long as possible, in lieu of becoming unit commanders or groomed for promotion. It means that the system gets value for it's training dollar. In civvy street, you don't get off flying or fixing unless ill health forces you out of the cockpit or the toolbox you voluntarily go to do something else.

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  29. #1321
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The AC don't realistically use their pilot and tech manpower, because , like so many other militaries and govt aviation, the personnel concerned are constantly being robbed for other things or some of the people concerned don't want to continue doing it (flxing or flying) and are doing something else, especially the further up the food chain they get. As a common example, pilots are routinely rotated to ground tours and the only flying they do on a ground tour is to keep currency up. Mechs were routinely rotated/detailed to the depot to train aptces in soldiering! No airline or civvy flying organisation would tolerate routinely moving skilled people out of their prime function for years or months at a time. At least the RAF have a system of professional aircrew (pilot) called the Professional Aircrew Spine (PAS), which keeps pilots flying for as long as possible, in lieu of becoming unit commanders or groomed for promotion. It means that the system gets value for it's training dollar. In civvy street, you don't get off flying or fixing unless ill health forces you out of the cockpit or the toolbox you voluntarily go to do something else.
    Absolutely agree but the establishment isn’t high enough as it is

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  31. #1322
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    You are also forgetting the profound difference between civil and military is rank and manpower; a civvy SAR station has a couple of pilots, a couple of mechs(one of whom is usually an avo/B2), a pair of back seaters and a storeman on a shift. All of them will routinely multi-task and will drive/cook/file paper/make tea/help with kit/carry stuff/move stuff and will freely interact with each other. A military SAR station will have much more manpower on it's establishment, all operating on a rigid, divisive rank structure and a much more expensive pay scale than is commonly realised, no cross-rank multi-tasking, no shared eating, no shared driving (in the military system, you have to have duty drivers. Pilots do not drive in the AC, EVER. This is a critical issue on a small SAR station, when all hands are needed to be able to move people and kit in the Station van, yet the AC does not allow most of it's staff to do something as simple as moving a van or a tug.), so this generates a need for duty drivers, another layer to be dealt with. In the AC, because so much is deferred to NCO rank in technical trades, you end up having Sergeant or Flight Sergeant techs being responsible on paper for doing the kind of basic tasks that a simple civvy B1 mech or B2 avo does as a matter of routine. The military stores and supply system is also ponderous and rank-heavy compared to a civvy set-up. When a paper establishment dictates that the Stores system has a CQMS as the post holder, as a minimum, then you are in trouble, whereas a civvy system just calls him (or her), "Storeman" and there are no airs and graces attached. The military system is also subject to people being posted out, going on courses, being grabbed for other duties, separate Messing, separate and inefficient Clothing supply, wildly different terms and conditions such as pay, annual leave, allowances and so on. Imagine telling a SAR guy that he can't do his shift because he has to do his Annual range practise on a wet Tuesday in January or that he is required to march down O'Connell Street in Easter and spend two weeks before that date, practising for it. That's why civvy SAR systems are efficient, because it slashes all the Military bull out of the system and people have time to think about their actual job instead of worrying about the 90% of crap that militaries regard as essential.
    Exactly my opinion, and it is not just in the AC, there is a need to get rid of a lot of 19th century BS and drag the force into the modern 21st! It might actually go a long way to helping with retention especially for technical skills. A lot of the BS was to cope with the level of education (or lack of it) in the 19th century and the "officer" class expectations at that time. Not something a modern defence force needs.

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  33. #1323
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Absolutely agree but the establishment isn’t high enough as it is
    Increasing establishment is not the only answer, with over 700 the AC should be able to cope much better than it is but it needs to accept that thing cannot continue the same as before. The "unionised" system has to go and go fast, people have to multi-task, BS needs to be eliminated where ever it is found.

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  35. #1324
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Increasing establishment is not the only answer, with over 700 the AC should be able to cope much better than it is but it needs to accept that thing cannot continue the same as before. The "unionised" system has to go and go fast, people have to multi-task, BS needs to be eliminated where ever it is found.
    Agreed but the establishment isn’t high enough and strength is no where near high enough

  36. #1325
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    As an aside things aren’t looking good for Waterford Airport-- Where has this been stated? Public or Rumour mil.
    While there is no scheduled traffic the airport remains fully functional and provides 24hrs cover for the Coast Guard Air Assets based on site. Probably the only reason the location continues to function at all apart from some air taxi traffic.


    The Air Corps needs to be kept separate from SAR work because of all of that mentioned but also because we must never allow the lines of division between a Coast Guard and a functioning branch of the DF to be clouded again.

    For the same reason we need a dedicated HEMS rather than the AC providing a role that has been outsourced else where just as the SAR service has.
    Time for another break I think......

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