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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    And the following sentence says?

    The only declared asset it has is the EAS helo.

    The whole point is that and aircraft that could be used is supposed to be tracked - as you well know this was the result of an incident - 1 of the parties being the Silgo helo
    In my opinion NACC should be kept informed as to the serviceability of CG a/c, they should also be notified when one is airborne and be able to call it direct via the tetra system, I won't hold my breath for that to be allowed!
    My position in this is simple, the patient and his/her needs is the absolute priority, the closest asset should be used as difinitive care in a Hospital is gold standard. Yes there is an AP on the EAS but the vast majority of patients that travel by helicopter (CG or EAS) have an AP sent because if the Ambulance Services dispatch criteria for sending AP's to all echo and delta calls aka the most serious.
    If I was suffering a life threatning emergency, send me the asset that will get me to hospital quicker, be it red/white or green, I don't care!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
      Rhodes,
      The videos you posted is an Irish Coast Guard S61N only transporting patients on exceptional circumstances. What happens to the IAC EAS operational area when the IRCG have a fully HEMS capable S92 in Sligo? I wouldn't want to be the AP explaining the delay in patient treatment because I waited for 10-15-20-25 mins for a HSE dedicated asset rather then asking whats actually available? Pass this on to 4 bases in Ireland and how many of the 248 missions will actually be flown, to the benefit of the patient, from Athlone.
      AC (or IRCG) aren't tasked by those at the scene, they are tasked by HSE NACC in Tullamore.

      Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
      Can I ask a very simple question?

      An IAC helicopter is based in Athlone. It routes to each incident from its base, right?
      Now, how does it react to places such as Kilrush and Achill Island from Athlone faster then the CG assets stationed in an area that they fly over? The 112 Facebook page is very quick to quote flight times FROM THE SCENE vs TOTAL transit times by ambulance but don't show the total mission times (ie AP on scene calls AA or goes by road), vs waiting for the helicopter from Athlone to the scene and then to the hospital. What is the actual time benefit??????

      How many patients could have been better served by a helicopter transfer by the local non IAC / HSE controlled asset rather then the midlands based asset?????

      The only scenarios that could have seen this happen is:

      1. The IAC helicopter was just finishing a mission in a nearby hospital and got retasked. Good call by all involved; or
      2. The IAC crew are sitting on a pad in a random hospital to save flight hours (see below) rather than routing back to Athlone after the mission is complete. (Ref DH248 accident report and EASA / JAR OPS 3 HEMS Regulations on rest areas)

      Now you may ask why No 2 is important but the reason is quite simple. The operation was given to the IAC as they were the lowest price. This was, unless I'm mistaken based on the operational cost of a 135. However, it would seem that despite the change from 135 to 139 and the associated escalation in cost the DoH are still only paying 135 costs while the DoD are footing the bill for the difference from the 139 to the 135. (More then happy to put an FOI to the DoH an post here if any body fells necessary). The end result is that, as usual, Johnny taxpayer is paying more then at first shown for a service provided by the IAC.
      You assume that the the local IRCG helo is available for a tasking, they could have been already on a mission.

      Lets remember it wasn't that the AC decided to just put an aircraft in Athlone. There was uproar from the public after Roscommon A&E closed (that's who costed it). The AC was then tasked with EAS who see if there was sufficient demand for it.



      Originally posted by Meatbomb View Post
      In my opinion NACC should be kept informed as to the serviceability of CG a/c, they should also be notified when one is airborne and be able to call it direct via the tetra system, I won't hold my breath for that to be allowed!
      Not opinion, it is a requirement after the HIQA investigation.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        AC (or IRCG) aren't tasked by those at the scene, they are tasked by HSE NACC in Tullamore.



        You assume that the the local IRCG helo is available for a tasking, they could have been already on a mission.

        Lets remember it wasn't that the AC decided to just put an aircraft in Athlone. There was uproar from the public after Roscommon A&E closed (that's who costed it). The AC was then tasked with EAS who see if there was sufficient demand for it.





        Not opinion, it is a requirement after the HIQA investigation.
        NACC can only request a CG a/c they can't task it.

        I don't know if NACC are aware of when a CG a/c is airborne training but I know they definitely can't communicate directly, even after said a/c has been tasked to assist NACC.

        There are more than a few incidents where an EAS a/c have responded to a patient where there was a closer CG a/c available. This is no fault of anybody in the EAS operation. It is because the whole protocol is based around requesting EAS first and only requesting CG assistance if EAS is busy/doesn't have the range/outside their hours of operation. If the phone rings in Athlone for a patient in Grange Co Sligo that needs a flight to Galway they will most likely accept the mission. It's not up to them to suggest a different a/c as the tasking authority should have considered that option first, having said that the SOP is EAS first, catch 22

        Comment


        • AC (or IRCG) aren't tasked by those at the scene, they are tasked by HSE NACC in Tullamore.
          Sorry, bad choice if words. Regardless of who requests the aircraft on scene the air vs road comparison clock starts ticking at the moment of the request, not when the aircraft departs the scene.
          As Meatbomb says, it's not an IAC issue it's the HSE but sending an aircraft on calls were other suitable assets are available and could get the patient to definitive care quicker is both skewing the stats and needlessly endangering patients.
          It would be very easy and interesting to dissect the 248 missions in such a manner.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
            Sorry, bad choice if words. Regardless of who requests the aircraft on scene the air vs road comparison clock starts ticking at the moment of the request, not when the aircraft departs the scene.
            As Meatbomb says, it's not an IAC issue it's the HSE but sending an aircraft on calls were other suitable assets are available and could get the patient to definitive care quicker is both skewing the stats and needlessly endangering patients.
            It would be very easy and interesting to dissect the 248 missions in such a manner.
            Give us examples where the there was 'skewing the stats and needlessly endangering patients'?

            Will the UK SAR new second UK SAR contact (second as there was issues with the first CHC!) be doing HEMS?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Happyman View Post
              Give us examples where the there was 'skewing the stats and needlessly endangering patients'?

              Will the UK SAR new second UK SAR contact (second as there was issues with the first CHC!) be doing HEMS?
              There is just no pleasing some people. You complained and others about the tax payer not getting value for money in relation to the new 92 contract. Now the tax payer is going to get more bang for their buck...with more to come, and you still complain. What issues HAPPY ? As I understand it there are no issues, all has now been cleared up over there by the MOD. All questions have been answered satisfactory.

              Comment


              • Happyman,
                I am assuming that if a helicopter has been called then the patient is in need of urgent assistance and every minute counts. In this case delaying the patients transport for utilization of a specific asset rather then the one closest to the casualty is needlessly endangering the patient. It also skews the stats by showing an apparent large utilization of that asset when it wasn't actually the most suitable for the casualty.
                With regards to which asset is most suitable have a look at any operation that is west of a line equi-distant between Shannon and Athlone. Any operation West of that line is quicker by S92 (With the exceptions given in post #824) but whatever way you cut the cloth an operation in Kilrush, west of Shannon airport is much faster by S92 yet when the EAS machine has been tasked there a serviceable, available S92 has been left sitting on the ramp.

                For actual specifics try a medevac from Lisseycassey in Co Clare on the 20th May. The S92 is less then 10nm away, serviceable and available. The EAS is tasked with the medevac to Limerick hospital. The only prior EAS operation that day was from Roscommon to Galway meaning that the EAS was at a minimum 35nm (Galway) or maybe even 60nm (Athlone) when tasked. Is that specific enough? Many thanks to Medevac 112s Facebook page for the operational data.

                As I said a very quick and easy study of each of the operations would show the true utility of the EAS and that in itself may prove the need for the EAS to be retained BUT if patient care is paramount and there are 4 HEMS capable S92 bases by the end of the year I just dont see how that 248 will translate into a viable need. Sorry.

                Will the UK SAR new second UK SAR contact (second as there was issues with the first CHC!) be doing HEMS?
                I don't know, why dont you give Bristows a ring and ask them. Maybe you can drop in your CV while your at it seeing as CHC is such a pit of depravity

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Helihead View Post
                  There is just no pleasing some people. You complained and others about the tax payer not getting value for money in relation to the new 92 contract. Now the tax payer is going to get more bang for their buck...with more to come, and you still complain. What issues HAPPY ? As I understand it there are no issues, all has now been cleared up over there by the MOD. All questions have been answered satisfactory.
                  More bang for two many bucks, is more accurate!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Meatbomb View Post
                    Do you have any substance to the claims you are making hm? Because it sounds like you are accusing crews misleading the IRCG. Evidence? No because dedicated professionals don't conduct a professional world class SAR service in such ways.

                    When has a fisherman been left in the water because of a CG helicopter on a STEMI call? Give us some examples please?

                    The CG a/c are linked to an integrated computer system that links each base to each other and to the MRSC's and the NMOC. All involved have access to this right up to the director of the IRCG. It's updated constantly as to aircraft serviceability.


                    Your a very bitter individual that casts wild accusations here with no substance. You need a little thread all to yourself to jump up an down in.

                    Anybody see a thread about air ambulance around here!!? :D
                    So happyman,
                    Where's your examples??? I'd be delighted to see some actual dialogue from you instead of some North Korean type rhetoric.

                    Comment


                    • Lets remember a week or 2 ago, 50% of the oncall IRCG aircraft attended 1 call out. It's my understanding that the reserve helos are only stood up if an aircraft goes u/s.

                      Also as an example, if the Shannon helo gets scrabbled, the Silgo and Waterford helos have to cover Shannon's area as well. And that is my understanding.

                      The EAS provides an AP level service, what level does the new contract GUARANTEE (EMT/P/AP ?)?

                      Who to say the MRCC wasn't asked to release an IRCG asset and refused?

                      The smaller AW139 should be able to get onto HLZs that the bigger helos can't.

                      AFAIK the EAS is on immediate NTM, the IRCG helos are at 15mins NTM.
                      Last edited by DeV; 16 June 2013, 19:08.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Lets remember a week or 2 ago, 50% of the oncall IRCG aircraft attended 1 call out. It's my understanding that the reserve helos are only stood up if an aircraft goes u/s.

                        Also as an example, if the Shannon helo gets scrabbled, the Silgo and Waterford helos have to cover Shannon's area as well. And that is my understanding.


                        The EAS provides an AP level service, what level does the new contract GUARANTEE (EMT/P/AP ?)?

                        Who to say the MRCC wasn't asked to release an IRCG asset and refused?

                        The smaller AW139 should be able to get onto HLZs that the bigger helos can't.

                        AFAIK the EAS is on immediate NTM, the IRCG helos are at 15mins NTM.
                        New contract is minimum Paramedic.

                        EAS has a 10 min airborne time during its duty period. You are correct that the CG is 15 mins but the 92 has been reaching airborne times between 6 and 12 mins.

                        EAS will bring an AP but as I said earlier, the majority of patients will have an AP in attendance when an a/c arrives. Most If not all CG / HSE calls I am aware of had an AP on scene. Come to think of it the 135 accident had an AP on scene too. It's part of the dispatch criteria for serious life threatening calls.

                        As for CG refusing an asset, that won't happen for a life or death call unless the a/c is not available. The incidents Tadpole mentioned had a S92 available.

                        A glance at the medevac 112 FB page shows the places they are responding to, some calls will incur a lengthy wait for an a/c this is simply not good enough when the road transfer would almost equal the wait time.

                        We have the resources, they just need to be used correctly.

                        Comment


                        • The criteria says a P/AP on scene. Unless there is an AP in the helo, the patient may be better off going by road depending on the condition as a P on a helo may not be able to give the care required.

                          The scene must be min 45 mins by road from hospital.

                          A helo may get there before an AP arrives.

                          Taskings are solely a NACC responsibility.

                          Comment


                          • The scene doesn't need to be 45 mins if the patient is seriously ill or the mechanism of injury suggests a helicopter may be more beneficial.

                            EAS can only be activated by HSE P/AP on scene so add that to the timeline.
                            CG a/c can be tasked without land ambulance in attendance.

                            Paramedic CPG's allow them to take over from an AP with IV's established and meds given, not in all cases but in most.

                            Comment


                            • http://http://www.swissrescue.ch/dossier/eas_article.pdf

                              Interesting article, activation criteria towards the end.

                              Brilliant outcome for the Cardiac arrest in Ballyshannon, and not to take away from the work done by all that day but how long does it take from Athlone using the range rings given in the article, plus 10 mins to get airborne? That scene was 10 mins from Sligo airport. Did it make a difference that day? Thankfully not, but we won't always be so fortunate.
                              Last edited by Meatbomb; 16 June 2013, 21:08.

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                                Last edited by Meatbomb; 16 June 2013, 23:56.

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