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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    It's also a government failing. Just as the IAC is an arm of the DF, the DF is an arm of the State. It should not be a closed shop. When an organisation as small as the IAC self scrutinises and disciplines there's bound to be a certain amount of covering each others arses. Failure to impose control is a failure at departmental level....
    Since the Gov also does not self scrutinise itself at political or civil service level in a meaningful fashion then one cannot expect better from sub units,not saying its right but there is a fine line between operating wrt risk of failure and fear of failure.

  2. #152
    BQMS Meatbomb's Avatar
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    If this were a large multinational company and some of its employees died in the performance of their duties and if the HSA found systemic failures as a contributory factor, like lack of oversight and not making sure SOP's and procedure was correctly followed, heads of that multinational may well be brought up on corporate manslaughter charges.
    If this was a civil flight training operation we wouldn't even be having this discussion, heads would roll. To hide behind "opsec" and "military operations" is a smoke screen. Yes it was a military a/c on a VFR TRAINING FLIGHT.
    We all remember the tragic loss of two firefighters in Bray in 2007. There is still a legal case pending that involves senior FF officers and County Council figures in Co Wicklow. One of the issues is that they were not provided with a safe working environment so as not to put employees at risk. It's is no doubt in relation to SOP's and training.
    As for the PC9 crew, do they not have the same rights to a safe working environment???

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/w...hs-552597.html

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatbomb View Post
    If this were a large multinational company and some of its employees died in the performance of their duties and if the HSA found systemic failures as a contributory factor, like lack of oversight and not making sure SOP's and procedure was correctly followed, heads of that multinational may well be brought up on corporate manslaughter charges.
    If this was a civil flight training operation we wouldn't even be having this discussion, heads would roll. To hide behind "opsec" and "military operations" is a smoke screen. Yes it was a military a/c on a VFR TRAINING FLIGHT.
    Well does military law not do anything here? Does military law have any charges similar to corporate manslaughter? Or if your were responsible for making sure safety audits were done but didn't bother doing your job for 5 years can military do anything to you?

    And Dev. I 100% believe what was first written in the papers and then brought up in the Dáil by Joe Higgins. OK maybe the papers can lie but I doubt a TD would in the Dáil! Also considering the Cadet's family are so dissatisfied with the report that they are going down the political route would suggest to me they have seen it!

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatbomb View Post
    if the HSA found systemic failures as a contributory factor
    I assume you are claiming that the lack of safety audits and problems with authorisation of flights were a contributing factor to the PC-9 accident??

    While they were found to be lacking, they were not found to have contributed to the accident !!!

  5. #155
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    Not following their own SOPs, in particular with reference to training did contribute to the accident. The lack of following SOPs is fully down to lack of oversight by the Unit OC, Flight Safety and at the head of the chain the GOC. Taking the view that systematic issues weren't pointed out in black and white by the AAIU (Read between the lines and they very much were) therefore they had absolutely no part in this accident is quite frankly nothing more than sticking your head in the sand and waiting for it to happen again. How the Defence Forces in general can condone this is quite frankly beyond me.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I assume you are claiming that the lack of safety audits and problems with authorisation of flights were a contributing factor to the PC-9 accident??

    While they were found to be lacking, they were not found to have contributed to the accident !!!
    Well that's your assumption DeV!
    Don't you think it's possible that if there were regular audits of FTS and if there was proper oversight that this accident may not have happened?
    If I am on the range and I let off a round by accident? Who's to blame? Me? The Range officer that didn't bother to clear my weapon? Or the instructor that didn't train me correctly. Change any one of those and I might not have fired the ND.

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  8. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    Not following their own SOPs, in particular with reference to training did contribute to the accident. The lack of following SOPs is fully down to lack of oversight by the Unit OC, Flight Safety and at the head of the chain the GOC. Taking the view that systematic issues weren't pointed out in black and white by the AAIU (Read between the lines and they very much were) therefore they had absolutely no part in this accident is quite frankly nothing more than sticking your head in the sand and waiting for it to happen again. How the Defence Forces in general can condone this is quite frankly beyond me.
    Is this the way the DF conducts all its COI's? Not much point having them if that's the case

  9. #158
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    The D248 report was probably the most circulated report ever, in the Don's history of crash reports. They were always confidential, even being kept from serving personnel. A lot of what the enlisted troops knew/ know about accidents either came out because they witnessed it or tidied up afterwards. I was involved in tidying up after a few of them and was not privy to any accident reports; it was strictly Officer eyes only and even then, it was officer participants and Board members and designated postholders who got to see them. Is it the same in the case of Army and NS accidents?

    regards
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  10. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    Not following their own SOPs, in particular with reference to training did contribute to the accident. The lack of following SOPs is fully down to lack of oversight by the Unit OC, Flight Safety and at the head of the chain the GOC. Taking the view that systematic issues weren't pointed out in black and white by the AAIU (Read between the lines and they very much were) therefore they had absolutely no part in this accident is quite frankly nothing more than sticking your head in the sand and waiting for it to happen again. How the Defence Forces in general can condone this is quite frankly beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatbomb View Post
    Well that's your assumption DeV!
    Don't you think it's possible that if there were regular audits of FTS and if there was proper oversight that this accident may not have happened?
    If I am on the range and I let off a round by accident? Who's to blame? Me? The Range officer that didn't bother to clear my weapon? Or the instructor that didn't train me correctly. Change any one of those and I might not have fired the ND.
    Are you talking about the AAIU report or not?

    If you are, you must be more knowledgable than the expert INDEPENDANT AAIU !!
    Who didn't find it to be a contributing factor !

    The AAIU has no problem assigning contributing factors to the AC as D248 proved!

  11. #160
    BQMS Meatbomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Are you talking about the AAIU report or not?

    If you are, you must be more knowledgable than the expert INDEPENDANT AAIU !!
    Who didn't find it to be a contributing factor !

    The AAIU has no problem assigning contributing factors to the AC as D248 proved!
    I just asked do you think it's possible? The report pulled a few punches but that is only my opinion. From reading it I definatly felt a lot of similarities with the 248 report. System failures that were found to contribute to the accident.
    The report into the PC9 may not actually state it but it can't not be a factor.

  12. #161
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    If you are, you must be more knowledgable than the expert INDEPENDANT AAIU !!
    Who didn't find it to be a contributing factor !
    Answer this Dev. According to your very blinkered view of the report if its not written down as a contributing factor then it has nothing to do with this accident. However, if the issues such as lack of oversight and lack of training in low level aborts had nothing at all to do with the accident why bother even putting them into the report at all?
    FACT: They are in the report and there is very good reason for it....BECAUSE THEY WERE FACTORS....maybe not DIRECTLY contributing but contributing none the less otherwise the very knowledgeable, independent experts of the AAIU wont have wasted their time putting them IN THE REPORT!!!!

  13. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatbomb View Post
    I just asked do you think it's possible? The report pulled a few punches but that is only my opinion. From reading it I definatly felt a lot of similarities with the 248 report. System failures that were found to contribute to the accident.
    The report into the PC9 may not actually state it but it can't not be a factor.
    It is the independent AAIU report, if they taught it was a contributing factor, they didn't!!!! Just because you think it is doesn't make it so, you cannot put words in the report!!!

    By the way I may/may not agree with you but I will not put words in the AAIUs mouth!

  14. #163
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    Following a court proceeding this thread has been reinstated.
    For various reasons, we will be keeping a close eye on it, Members are reminded to respect the fact that 2 people lost their lives in this accident and left grieving families.
    Members of the Air Corps are free to post here, but keeping their own identity from their superior/fellow officers and men is their responsibility alone.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  16. #164
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  17. #165
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    Will the former COS be called to account to be asked why he blocked the progression of the investigation within the AC?
    Just visiting

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  19. #166
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    Murph, interesting post, I can see why the mods suspended this thread , I assume you have very strong evidence for this allegation against a retired COS, hope he or his legal advisor aren't on IMO !

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  21. #167
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    MOD: Lads this is serious and involves courts actions.

    Unless there is evidence/reports in the public domain then it is not to be discussed here

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