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  • #46
    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
    Surely a few lt cols or cols could fill the role of goc.
    Think of the Sections of the Defence Act and the DFRs that say "GOC", eg what if you are seeking a redress how do you go to the GOC if there isn't one?!

    Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
    With the impending 3-2 Bde re org, it's quite possible that the Bde GOC will become a Bde OC position, i.e; the position will
    lead to a drop in rank to hold the position
    Up to the reorg of the PDF in the 90s you would have been correct!

    Pre-reorg there was a Bde (OC was a Colonel) in each Command, who reported to the GOC

    Post-reorg they got rid of the Command level structure.... therefore the OC of the Brigade is the GOC

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    • #47
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Think of the Sections of the Defence Act and the DFRs that say "GOC", eg what if you are seeking a redress how do you go to the GOC if there isn't one?!



      Up to the reorg of the PDF in the 90s you would have been correct!

      Pre-reorg there was a Bde (OC was a Colonel) in each Command, who reported to the GOC

      Post-reorg they got rid of the Command level structure.... therefore the OC of the Brigade is the GOC
      Also, in the distant past, GOC of a Command was a Colonel....
      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
        Also, in the distant past, GOC of a Command was a Colonel....
        If by distant you mean mid to late 1970s, yes

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        • #49
          Is the term GOC an appointment rather than a rank?

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          • #50
            It's an appointment,

            With our strength there is really no need for so many generals, we should at max have two generals.
            Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
            Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
            The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
            The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
            The best lack all conviction, while the worst
            Are full of passionate intensity.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
              It's an appointment,

              With our strength there is really no need for so many generals, we should at max have two generals.
              The Swiss have the right idea- a full General is appointed only in time of war. The last was the great Vaudois Henri Guisan in WW2. Even in the modern Swiss Army titles such as Divisionnaire are used. Anyone travelling in Switzerland can only be impressed by the common sight of Swiss soldiers traveling on trains to camp with their weapons. Michael Collins wanted the New Irish Army to be modelled on the Swiss-pity he did not have time to see it through.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                It's an appointment,

                With our strength there is really no need for so many generals, we should at max have two generals.
                In the Army or in the DF?
                I cannot fathom why the head of an islands defence force, is an army general. Given the state is surrounded on 3 sides by water, and covered by sky surely the proportion of defence command should reflect this? Why is the CoS position not either shared or rotated between the 3 branches?
                Brig general for Army, Air Corps and Naval service. There is no practical need why a colonel cannot command a brigade. Their role as head of corps directorates is purely a superficial one, designed so they can mark time till a Brigade command comes up. Compare it to the equivalent in the Air Corps and Naval service, where each of the 4 (2 each) colonels occupy actual technical management positions within the ORBAT. There is no overlap.

                Think of it.
                Lt commands Pln/tp
                Capt 2ic to Comdt
                Comdt commands Coy/bty/sqn
                Lt Col Commands Bn/rgt
                colonel... well er.. um...2ic to brig gen? So why do we need so many?
                Brig Gen commands Brigade...
                Simples.


                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                  Think of it.
                  Lt commands Pln/tp
                  Capt 2ic to Comdt
                  Comdt commands Coy/bty/sqn
                  Lt Col Commands Bn/rgt
                  colonel... well er.. um...2ic to brig gen? So why do we need so many?
                  Brig Gen commands Brigade...
                  Simples.
                  Interesting; we had the same arrangement years ago, then reorganized our structure. Now we have Cols commanding Bdes, and BGens commanding Areas.

                  We have more Gens then we have formations; one BGen is second-in-command to the US Army III Corps, others are tasked to different international orgs. We also keep higher-level HQs and staff for tasks like assuming command of RC(S) or missions like Libya.
                  "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

                  Never give up!!"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
                    Is the term GOC an appointment rather than a rank?
                    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                    It's an appointment,

                    With our strength there is really no need for so many generals, we should at max have two generals.
                    It isn't an appointment but what does the G stay for? You have to be of General staff rank to hold the appointment.

                    Ah, the establishment versus the strength! But that will change (assuming the change the establishment as well)

                    Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                    In the Army or in the DF?
                    I cannot fathom why the head of an islands defence force, is an army general. Given the state is surrounded on 3 sides by water, and covered by sky surely the proportion of defence command should reflect this? Why is the CoS position not either shared or rotated between the 3 branches?
                    Brig general for Army, Air Corps and Naval service. There is no practical need why a colonel cannot command a brigade. Their role as head of corps directorates is purely a superficial one, designed so they can mark time till a Brigade command comes up. Compare it to the equivalent in the Air Corps and Naval service, where each of the 4 (2 each) colonels occupy actual technical management positions within the ORBAT. There is no overlap.
                    Assuming the person is qualified and has come throught the ranks (including Major General) I see no reason why not?

                    The UK, NZ and Australia are all islands. I know the UK rotate it, not sure what NZ do but they have heads of the 3 services and the equivalent of the COS is a Lt General.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      The UK, NZ and Australia are all islands. I know the UK rotate it, not sure what NZ do but they have heads of the 3 services and the equivalent of the COS is a Lt General.
                      Interesting... we used to rotate the CDS between the 3 Services; now, the person best-qualified gets the job. Our current CDS is Army (Armour).

                      The Canadian Army, RCN and RCAF are force generators, commanded by LGens; Canada-Command and Expeditionary Forces Command are force employers, also commanded by LGens. MGens command divisions or equivalent multi-national formations.
                      "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

                      Never give up!!"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        It isn't an appointment but what does the G stay for? You have to be of General staff rank to hold the appointment....
                        Where does it says that though ? As I said previously, officers of Colonel rank held the appointment in the past
                        "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                          Where does it says that though ? As I said previously, officers of Colonel rank held the appointment in the past
                          The establishment!

                          Same way a Captain can't call himself the Coy Comdr even though there is a vacancy

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                          • #58
                            It's an appointment not a rank,
                            Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                            Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                            The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                            The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                            The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                            Are full of passionate intensity.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              But a Captain can hold the Coy Commander appointment, if he/she is posted into that appointment.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                From what I have been told they can't! They can in effect be the Coy Commander but will hold the appointment of 2i/c.

                                Unless you hold the qualifications for an appointment (in this case the rank), you can't hold the appointment.

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