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  1. #1
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    Is the IAC Viable?

    Looking at recent threads I ask myself if the IAC is a viable organisation?
    The people are willing, the equipment is in place but does the ethos equate to a viable military organisation?
    From my own perspective, in its current guise, no. However I would like to see what members of the Irish Army and Irish Navy think of the IAC as a military component to their operations. Not a training element but an actual embodied element.

    No details required, just yes they are or no they aren't if you prefer. Remember this is about operational capability, not whether you have trained with them in the past or not.

    PH et al, you have endured the defence for long enough. Now is your chance to tell us why the IAC is relevant, effective and efficient. Over to you.
    Last edited by Tadpole; 9th September 2012 at 04:39.

  2. #2
    BQMS Meatbomb's Avatar
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    I think it isn't in it's current state. I think the people are willing, they have the facilities and the staff. What let's the people in bal down is senior ranks and above lacking the will to take the air corps from where it is to where it needs to be. It wouldn't take much, and would require a lot of flexibility across the ranks, which I don't think would be a problem because I know the people and they want to do the job.
    I know other threads have descended into what seems like a pi**ing contest. Can we not have that here please!!! I'm pro air corps just anti bull sh*t.

  3. #3
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    Yes. They have the ability to support us on military Op plus on our ATCP and ATCA missions. The AW139, EC135 and even the Cessna's are great support aircraft.

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  5. #4
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I think they are under increasing pressure to remain viable and they really only come under the spot light when some goes wrong , other wise the carry on as normal in the back round with very little visible change to those outside the organisation.

    Very few of the general public know anything about the roles of the AC and the work that goes unnoticed and unapplauded until it gets into the press.

    With the transfer of SAR work to the Coast Gurad the public profile has dropped significantly without the PR department 'selling' the AC as such.

    Every time the NS get a photo oppertunity they take it, get it out on the web through facebook...everything is highlighted in the media thus raising awareness and giving people a keen eye into at least knowing the NS exist.

    The AC seem to have lost the knack of prolific self promotion , but then again some aspects of the job are probably best kept low profile, MATS for example as its seen by the majority of people as wasteful.

    If the lack of public dynamic is a feature of how the AC works and if even a fraction of the negativity posted is reflection of the management well maybe it needs an overhaul.

    By association of the word 'Service',no branch of the DF is viable as there is no financial gain or return involved with its existence, does its continued existence warrant the costs?

    If anything I believe the AC needs to be bigger to do more , be able to deploy overseas, if anything it is hamstrung by its size

    .ie take for instance the loss of a EC 135..you've lost 50% of your training capacity in one loss.

    If we lost a Casa in the morning the second one would be worn out with a couple of years.

    If the AC is to survive it has to grow.
    Time for another break I think......

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  7. #5
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    And if the 'civilian' roles were taken away (for any section of the DF) the DF would be cut further as it gives the State multi-role economy.

  8. #6
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    Viable? Yes , absolutely.
    Despite being a bit too broadly tasked, it is still an organisation with huge potential.
    This is due to the flexibility of its members, but that can only provide so much in each role. Hopefully the new white paper will tidy up its roles and include overseas. All that is needed then is to man and equip it to task. That might take a while.

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  10. #7
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    And if the 'civilian' roles were taken away (for any section of the DF) the DF would be cut further as it gives the State multi-role economy.
    Ok youere the minister in theory and you have to make cuts...where do you begin?
    Time for another break I think......

  11. #8
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    Screen pilot candidates in a light aircraft first. If they pass, send the pilots to Oxford to become CPLs and then sign them on, six months in the Curragh to teach them which spoon is for soup and then convert them to military flying. Stream them to fixed-wing or rotary. Rotary goes back to the Army (aircraft rotates to Curragh for 6 months and pilot is joined at hip to aircraft) and is attached to the Curragh. Fixed-Wing stays in the Don. Same with the mechs. You want value for money? tell them on Day1, word 1, that they will not do any other job or be diverted for sport, any other course except essential military courses and they will not be allowed to transfer unless they have a vital-to-life reason. The State is spending big dollars and wants value for money. Pilot? Fly. Mech?. Fix. You know what you'll be doing for the next nine years. If you don't like the sound of that, close the door behind you.
    Cuts? Offer a decent redundo and you'll get all the human cuts you want. ground 10 or 20 percent of the fleet, close ten percent of the buildings to care and maint status, park ten percent of the vehicles, pay freeze, promotion freeze, absolute ban on overseas junkets (such as serving the Chad jaunt in Paris), cut at least one layer of Officer and senior NCO management out of the establishment. Fire ten percent less ammunition, burn ten percent less fuel, oil, turf, coal, wood,etc,etc.
    Anything left?

    regards
    GttC

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  13. #9
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    What exactly makes it unviable wrt its raison d etre.

  14. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    What exactly makes it unviable wrt its raison d etre.
    because so much of its operations are easy meat for civil operators - once you strip the civil roles away you've got 6 helicopters (and as has been pointed out, if a civil contrator can do the Army Co-Op job in the Falklands, or in Chad, then they can do it in Ireland...), and a seperate service with 6 helicopters isn't viable.

    MATS is a role that a civil contractor, or group of civil contractors can do.

    AA is a role a CC can do.

    FP and MARPAT is a role a CC can do.

    Police Support is a role a CC can do.

    if the AC no longer operates any operational fixed wing aircraft, do you think the MoF is going to stand for it having fixed wing training aircraft?...

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  16. #11
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    Tadpole asked a good question, "what members of the Irish Army and Irish Navy think of the IAC as a military component to their operations." I wish people would stick to answering the question rather than talking shite.

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  18. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by almaza View Post
    Tadpole asked a good question, "what members of the Irish Army and Irish Navy think of the IAC as a military component to their operations." I wish people would stick to answering the question rather than talking shite.
    He did, and at the moment the silence from those quarters is deafening.

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  20. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helihead View Post
    He did, and at the moment the silence from those quarters is deafening.
    How many serving solders or sailors use this site? Seems to be mostly civvies on here.

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  22. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    because so much of its operations are easy meat for civil operators - once you strip the civil roles away you've got 6 helicopters (and as has been pointed out, if a civil contrator can do the Army Co-Op job in the Falklands, or in Chad, then they can do it in Ireland...), and a seperate service with 6 helicopters isn't viable.

    MATS is a role that a civil contractor, or group of civil contractors can do.

    AA is a role a CC can do.

    FP and MARPAT is a role a CC can do.

    Police Support is a role a CC can do.

    if the AC no longer operates any operational fixed wing aircraft, do you think the MoF is going to stand for it having fixed wing training aircraft?...
    And there's no reason a private contractor can't do boardings at sea. Get a private contractor to provide armed cash escorts, just a pass some legislation. The ceremonial stuff - well there's no reason an civil contractor cant do that. And the bands? Ditto. Why do the army do UN/EU/NATO missions anyway? Someone else can them instead. A foreign head of state wants to visit? Let their own military do all the security.

    Can't a civilian contractor maintain the Mowags? Scratch that - why do we need Mowags at all? Just hire Blackwater if needed.

    Seriously though; the Air Corps can offer armed air support, both with PC-9's & AW-139's - both are also useful in an air policing role - similar aircraft are used around the world to police airspace, the usual guffawing about their capabilities isn't warranted, if you fly a Cessna over the Whitehouse you're going to be intercepted by a Blackhawk not an F-22.

    They have the assets needed to offer a basic level of domestic support to the Army, Navy & CG.

    Talk of transferring all these roles over to private contractors can't be talked about in a vacuum; if you're going to cut the AC, why not get rid of every branch of the Defence Forces.

    There appears to be a legitimate debate over whether the Air Corps could offer a better service, but the "get a civilian contractor to do everything" appears to be coming from sharks foaming at the mouth at the prospect of all that money.

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  24. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by almaza View Post
    How many serving solders or sailors use this site? Seems to be mostly civvies on here.
    Well, It is called " Irish military online". The IAC brothers in arms, Army and Navy sections on this forum seem to be quite busy with military types putting their points across.

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  26. #16
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almaza View Post
    How many serving solders or sailors use this site? Seems to be mostly civvies on here.
    Hang on there while the serving members of the site stick their heads up so a recently arrived WUM identifies them.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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  28. #17
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    Problem is that for a long, long time, the Don used the standard line that it alone in the State was capable of doing the aerial work for the DF yet time marched on and civvies were found to be doing the same or similar jobs, either at home or abroad, for better value for money, using less equipment and personnel and delivering on time and under budget. The Don has always claimed that it's way is the best way yet that has proved not to be the case, over and over again. There's precious little that they do that couldn't be farmed out and they know it, especially when Donners move outside and learn how it's done in the real world.

    regards
    GttC

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  30. #18
    BQMS Meatbomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonetothecanner View Post
    problem is that for a long, long time, the don used the standard line that it alone in the state was capable of doing the aerial work for the df yet time marched on and civvies were found to be doing the same or similar jobs, either at home or abroad, for better value for money, using less equipment and personnel and delivering on time and under budget. The don has always claimed that it's way is the best way yet that has proved not to be the case, over and over again. There's precious little that they do that couldn't be farmed out and they know it, especially when donners move outside and learn how it's done in the real world.

    Regards
    gttc
    fact

  31. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    ...Talk of transferring all these roles over to private contractors can't be talked about in a vacuum; if you're going to cut the AC, why not get rid of every branch of the Defence Forces...
    because, unlike the AC, the other military services provide, and demonstrate that they can provide, a niche role and capability that a) the state needs, b) that while a contractor could do the world, they'd charge the earth for it, and c) very much unlike the AC, they demonstrate to Ministers that they want to give the Minister more bang for his buck.

    i have no doubt that each new crisis comes up in the world the Army and NS say to the minister and senior CS in the DoD 'we could do that', but that there's a deafening silence from the AC, because such crises rarely happen on a 9-5, monday to friday basis, and within an hours flying time of Baldonnel.

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  33. #20
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    How many serving solders or sailors use this site? Seems to be mostly civvies on here.
    Enough to give it some balance .

    Too many in either direction and it becomes another ARRSE.

    Enough here with experience of air corps and army and aviation in general to have a realistic overview of the AC, the NS and the Army.

    Stick around you might even get the hang of the debates and understand peoples backrounds and where they are coming from.
    Time for another break I think......

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  35. #21
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    Surprise surprise CHC heads giving out about the Air Corps.

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  37. #22
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    Looking at recent threads I ask myself if the IAC is a viable organisation?
    .
    You mean looking at the recent threads where you have continually stating that the Air Corps is not viable, or are there other threads? I am shutting this one down, there are plenty of other threads on this topic, there is no need to start another one.

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