Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 73
  1. #1
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Hacienda
    Posts
    5,263
    Post Thanks / Like

    Ireland during WW2

    This one's for you Faughanballagh, since you obviously put no research into your comments and persist in writing complete nonsense.

    At the beginning of WW2 Ireland declared itself neutral. DeValera, the taoiseach of the day, met with the ambassadors of the combative nations to inform them of this. When he met the head of the German legation, a Dr. Hempel, he informed him that Ireland would have to show a certain deference to Britain as it was our biggest trading partner.

    Some examples of this deference include:
    1. Allowing thousands of Irishmen to go to the UK to join the British Army.

    2. Providing meteorological reports to the UK, while at the same time denying that information to the Axis.

    3. Interning all Axis servicemen who landed or washed up here, but returning Allied servicemen to the UK. (Some Allied personnel were interned to keep up appearances).

    4. Cracking down on the IRA to prevent them interfering with the British war effort. Many IRA men were interned without trial, some died on hunger strike & I think a few were executed.

    5. Allowing British rescue boats to be based along the west coast. Allowing the British a flight corridor to the Atlantic from Northern Ireland over Donegal.


    These are hardly the actions of a pro-German government, next you'll be telling us that German U-boats were re-fuelling in Kerry.


    As for German spies, the vast majority of them were complete amateurs who were caught within days of their landing. They included a circus strongman and an Indian. The only German agent who was halfway competent was Hermann Goertz, who landed in 1940 and managed to evade capture until 1941.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  2. #2
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    4,300
    Post Thanks / Like
    I challange your point 3. Records show that until 1941 the policy was to inter all beligerants, it was only when the US joined the war effort that Ireland looked at what it defined as a beligerant and decided that those who crash landed on the west coast having flown from the US were deemed to on transport or training missions and therefore were not defined as beligerent. As the war progressed Ireland adopted a policy of leaning towards the Allies and "allowed" allied prisoners to escape or returned them home on "medical grounds". So your point 3 was correct at the end of the war but I doubt very much if it was stated so clearly at the start.

  3. #3
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    S 116 349
    Posts
    10,095
    Post Thanks / Like
    The pro German myth arose from De Valera calling on Herr Hempel in 1945 to extend the nations condolences on the death of Adolf Hitler. On the face of things this was a bit out of order but having said that, since we were neutral, Hitler was neither friend nor enemy. Compare to the Irish Army providing a GOH for the Israeli president while his country's army was busy killing our troops in Lebanon.

    If truth is the first casualty of war then the first casualty of diplomacy is honour.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  4. #4
    Chief of the Diet Tribe Groundhog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    S 116 349
    Posts
    10,095
    Post Thanks / Like
    Many IRA men were interned without trial, some died on hunger strike & I think a few were executed.

    Local boy here was executed in Portlaois in 1941 or 42. Name of George Plant. He murdered a supposed informer and after his civilian trial collapsed he was tried by military tribunal and executed by firing squad. Against the wall under one of the current sentry posts in Portlaois. Sean McBride was his defence lawyer. He later had the emergency legislation setting up the militray tribunals declared unconstitutional. Another lad from Kerry was executed as well though I've only ever read about him in a book of republican songs.
    Last edited by Groundhog; 20th December 2003 at 02:37.

    Say NO to violence against Women

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    My favourite moment was when the
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

  5. #5
    Heritage
    Guest

    Ireland during WW2

    Here we go again. This neutrality debate. This is nearly as repetitive as the Steyr optical sight!

    The then Free State did pretend to have a policy of neutrality, the pretence continued when it was realsied what side was likely to win, or if you like when it was realised that Germany was not going visit Dover!
    Ireland maintaind a veneer of "neutrality" because it did not overtly side with any beligerent but did maintain a friendly unneutral bias towards Britain and the Allies.

    Our stance was best summed up by Britain's Dominion Secretary, Viscount Cranbourne, on 21 Feb 1945 when involved in a debate as to whether Ireland should be invited to the inaugurating conference of the UN. He mentioned the following examples:

    A. The arrangement of staff talks to plan against a possible German invasion of Ireland and the subsequent close liaison between the British and Irish authorities.

    B. The similar liaison with British intellegence regarding all aliens resident in Ireland.

    C. The permission given for Allied use of the Atlantic Corridor (Lough Erne through Sligo/Donegal).

    D. Met and submarine reports from around the Irish coast. (note that the met report giving the go ahead for D Day came from Belmullet Co. Mayo)

    E.The internment of all German fighting personnel and the sharpy contrasting treatment of Allied personnell, who by the early stages of the war were allowed to depart freely, and who were given full assistance in recovering damaged aircraft.

    F. The Irish Government's silent acquiesence of thousands of Irishmen who wished to serve in Allied forces and in their returning to Ireland on leave (in civvies provided at British ports)
    N.B. 165,000 citizens joined the British Army alone. This figure included 8,000 Irish Army deserters who realised that they were not going to see action otherwise. This figure does not include, RN, RAF, Commonwealth Forces or US Forces.

    G. The establishment of a radar station for use against the latest form of submarine activity.

    Point to note is that our entry to the UN was blocked by the Soviet Union who maintained that we were not neutral and were anti-communist!

    The cooperation between the Irish military and the US was so satisfactory that the Chief of Staff, Assistant Chief and OC Air Corps were awarded the Legion of Merit. The citation read "exceptionally meritorious and outstanding services to the US in 1943-45"
    The award was decllined in order to preserve our facade of neutrality.

    OK? We were not neutral and we are not. We have successive government who are not prepared to address our responsibilities in this area and who go cap in hand to neighbours when faced with a real threat e.g 9/11 EU summits etc.

  6. #6
    John
    Guest
    Didn't the Americans want to award medals to members of the Army and diplomatic service because of their efforts on behlaf of the Allies during the war?

  7. #7
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    W06 16 03.3, N53 21 04.6 (WGS84)
    Posts
    96
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Germans must have been seen by many Irish to be allies of sorts, it was only a few years previously we were landing German rifles to use against Britain

  8. #8
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    4,300
    Post Thanks / Like
    I remember talking to a former member of my unit who joined during the emergency. He said that the common thought was that in the event of an invasion they would have to lock up a third of the army because 1/3 were anti british and would have supported a german invasion, 1/3 were pro-ally and would have supported an allied invasion and 1/3 didn't care who invaded they just wanted to fight someone.

  9. #9
    Heritage
    Guest
    Originally posted by John
    Didn't the Americans want to award medals to members of the Army and diplomatic service because of their efforts on behlaf of the Allies during the war?
    DID YOU NOT READ MY SUBMISSION?

  10. #10
    John
    Guest
    Originally posted by Heritage
    DID YOU NOT READ MY SUBMISSION?
    DID YOU MENTION THE ACTIVITIES OF IRISH DIPLOMATS?

  11. #11
    6-40509-04014-7 yooklid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Right behind you.....
    Posts
    2,921
    Post Thanks / Like
    What did they (the diplomats) allegedly do?
    Meh.

  12. #12
    John
    Guest
    Originally posted by yooklid
    What did they (the diplomats) allegedly do?
    Discreet diplomatic work on behalf of the Americans.

  13. #13
    6-40509-04014-7 yooklid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Right behind you.....
    Posts
    2,921
    Post Thanks / Like
    With whom?
    Meh.

  14. #14
    Heritage
    Guest
    Originally posted by John
    DID YOU MENTION THE ACTIVITIES OF IRISH DIPLOMATS?
    I am glad that you read it after all!

  15. #15
    John
    Guest
    Originally posted by Heritage
    I am glad that you read it after all!
    I AGREE!

  16. #16
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Metropolis
    Posts
    2,284
    Post Thanks / Like
    He said that the common thought was that in the event of an invasion they would have to lock up a third of the army because 1/3 were anti british and would have supported a german invasion, 1/3 were pro-ally and would have supported an allied invasion and 1/3 didn't care who invaded they just wanted to fight someone.
    I think that this is f*cking hilarious... real typical mad maniac irish fighting men stuff!!! we would have torn each other apart and then ripped the invaders up too!!! the best bit tho is the... and 1/3 didn't care who invaded they just wanted to fight someone.
    lol:-patriot: :flagwave: :-patriot: :flagwave: :xlol: :flagwave: :-patriot:

  17. #17
    Lt Colonel The Joker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    In front of the section
    Posts
    2,033
    Post Thanks / Like
    I dont think it would be very funny if it actually happened.
    If your not in bed by 4 o' clock it's time to go home!

  18. #18
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    4,300
    Post Thanks / Like
    But it didn't so we can laugh:xlol:

  19. #19
    parkman
    Guest
    Just supposing we had trown our lot in with the Brits in 39 and bearing in mind that we had no offensive capability whatsoever and precious little in the way of a defensive capability and just supposing the Brits had asked the Germans for terms, where would we have been then seeing as how we had declared war on Germany without any cause whatsoever?

  20. #20
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,442
    Post Thanks / Like
    If we had gone in in 39,most of the equipment we had would have been left on the beaches of dunkirk,and we would have ended up like the Poles and French,fighting under the flag of a country that was not ours,and more than likely our status as an independant nation would have suffered considerably. With our attentions elsewhere,possibly the IRA at the time would have siezed the initiative and continued where the civil war left off.
    And,40 years later,when the cold war had ended,and the US no longer required us as a submarine and airbase,The UK Puppet government would fall,and the country would again be immersed in a Balkan like struggle,leaving us more divided than ever.Protestant loyalists to the North,Catholic Loyalists in the east coast,Nationalists in the south west,and the west devoid of any industry,or economy,relying on the rest of the island for handouts to survive. Much of the west is populated with Refugees from the war who have settled in Ireland,unwanted elsewhere,with Romany ethnicity,in addition to a minority of Eastern European Jews,who are routinely persecuted for their faith,in a similar way to the Limerick Pogrom of 1902. 40% of the population do not consider English as their first language.

    Whether we like it or not,we had a lot to thank Dev for. His careful handling of Irish Neutrality,in the face of worldwide opposition was a brave step for a young nation. It shaped the nation of today,which all things considered,is not all bad.

    It could have been so much worse.

  21. #21
    parkman
    Guest
    Who has had their wheetabix then?
    Vert impressive reply goldie--have a nice day

  22. #22
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,442
    Post Thanks / Like
    Occasionally i have moments of inspiration......then the server breaks and all is lost..
    Off to bed now for me.

  23. #23
    Closed Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Villa Straylight
    Posts
    2,082
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ahhh Goldie,

    Knew you wouldn't let me down ...

    First of all, alternative history is a tough one to argue, but here I go anyway.

    If we had gone in in 39,most of the equipment we had would have been left on the beaches of dunkirk,and we would have ended up like the Poles and French,fighting under the flag of a country that was not ours,and more than likely our status as an independant nation would have suffered considerably.

    First of all, even the British kept most of their forces home, the forces deployed to France in 1940 were mostly the BEF, better equipped then the rest of the British Army, true, but not all, by any means.

    Secondly, theres no way Ireland would have had any forces ready for deployment abroad in 1939-40. The equipment, training and even units did not exist at that time (and the British couldn't even equip their own army in 1939-40, let alone spare equipment for us). Chances are Irish troops would have been retained on island, with some being trained for deployment abroad. So no Dunkirk.

    Lastly, French and Polish troops fought under their own flag, and at least they, even as 'conquered' nations, fought. We hid behind our mothers skirts. I think the only people on the planet that viewed 'neutrality' as an effective statement of independence lived in Ireland, everyone else regarded it as cowardice.

    With our attentions elsewhere,possibly the IRA at the time would have siezed the initiative and continued where the civil war left off.

    Possibly, but they lost the Civil War in fine style, and they'd had little support since then. The Germans would probably have come to their aid, but even then, I think events have shown that the Germans had enough on their plate.

    And,40 years later,when the cold war had ended,and the US no longer required us as a submarine and airbase,The UK Puppet government would fall,and the country would again be immersed in a Balkan like struggle,leaving us more divided than ever

    Whoa there Nelly, we've jumped 40 years, and theres a UK puppet Government? Thats a radical leap, and very pessimistic one at that. France fought alongside the UK and the US, was there a UK puppet Government there? De Gaulle anyone? Ditto for the Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians ... all fought the Germans, with considerable internal conflict also (Vichy France?) but none of them ended up being anything other than free independent countries.

    How about this for an alternative view. We join the war in 1941 after Pearl Harbour; the Army receives US military aid, instead of 50,000 Irish people fighting under a UK flag, they fight under an Irish one. At least two Irish Divisions take part in the Normandy landings, fighting through France and Germany. Post war, the return of demobilised troops and the commercial boom caused by (significant) Marshall aid leads to irelands taking part in the 50s boom, agriculture is modernised and national industries grow as the country experiences the full range of 1950s and 1960s modernisation, joining the EC when it is formed in 1960. By 2004, the state has been in the top rank of small western European countries for 40 years, has been in NATO since its foundation and has won three World Cups ...

    Devs 'careful handling' was calculated cowardice, nothing more, and was based on the (admittedly correct) assumption that we were not important enough for anyone to attack us. Not any great or even remotely honourable statement of independence.

  24. #24
    parkman
    Guest
    I think Aidan you are employing a great deal of hindsight here.The question posed was related to 1939 and the Brits had already betrayed Czechoslovakia.The countries you mentioned --Norway Holland and Belgium were netural until invaded.In fact Belgium refused to allow the French and BEF to advance into their territory until the Germans had launched their attack and what resistance did Denmark put up? and how did the Germans get into Norway?why by way of "neutral" Sweden.So lets put aside these notions of honour and courage.There was going to be a fight between the two big bullies on the block and there was a scatter and Dev was perhaps in the forefront of that and more power to him.
    And at the end of all the fuss how was honour and courage served ? why by selling out Poland and the thousands of Poles who had fought alongside the Brits

  25. #25
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    W06 16 03.3, N53 21 04.6 (WGS84)
    Posts
    96
    Post Thanks / Like
    Well what about the scenario of the British keeping the treaty ports instead of handing them back in 1938? Would the Germans bombing Cobh have dragged us into the war then? After all the deliberate bombing of Campile didn't threaten our neutrality. Churchill famously said that the ports were of no immediate strategic concern to Britain but if they became so then they would not hesitate to retake them. Britain also helped us establish our army intelligence operations at the start of the war, and there was the agreed plan in the event of German invasion that a British General would command operations from the Grand Hotel Malahide once our Defence Forces were defeated, all food for thought.......

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. WW2 era plane flying over Kildare yesterday
    By ICUN in forum Air Corps
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 22nd September 2003, 10:25

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •