Ireland during WW2

[Aidan]

Yellowjacket, I argue like this for a living. I can go on for months ...

[Bravo20]

There must be something else about Ireland and WW2. What about stories about the Irish Merchant Marine during the war or Irish peoples love of Lord Haw Haw, or the call up of survivors from the war of independance and the civil war (both sides)

[yellowjacket]

Very good point - anyone got any info about Tom Barry's service in the Emergency Army for example?

[Goldie fish]

There is a new book out about him....

[parkman]

Ok lads final reply to Aidan.

[u]" and it was called appeasement. But the point is, they learned their lesson, we never did. To this day in fact."[u/]
Well the French certainly did they switched collaboration .

[u]"Nope, but by late 1941, Britain wouldn't have done either, the US would.[u]
So we were going to sit under a hail German bombs because Dev could reassure us that the Yanks were coming not in 39 not in 40 not in 41 but early 42.


[u]In 1940-42, we were in a strong enough position to be able to negotiate over what conditions /we/ would enter the war.[u/]
So now you agree with cowardly neutrality until 1942 and then we would negotiate conditions of entry. What a climb down.

[u]"And between them they saved our ass while we did feck all to help them. Does that not irk you, that while our soul may well be safe, we owe our corporeal existence to this devilish trio?"[u/]
What irks me is that they were nearly the ruination of all of Europe as they were for half of it.They allowed Hitler enter the Rhur they allowed him to rearm,they allowed him to annex Austria,and most shamefully of all they they gave up an ally-the Czechs.And this club of colonial states even went as far as offering Hitler back the German colonies in Africa.Why all this appsement?Because the Brits believed Germany should be allowed to take its rightful place in Europe.

[U]"And instead we chose not to take a stand at all"[u/]
Let's see now what stands were available in Europe at the time--Appeasement,Aggression,Neutrality,Collaboration and let's trow in the one Uncle Sam had taken--total disinterest and let's not forget your one [the best one of all]a negotiated entry into the war

Cheers Aidan talk again somewhere else

[Bravo20]

In the new book about Tom Barry, it briefly describes his service during WW2. He enlisted when the Civil/Independance War vets were asked to contribute. His role was to help prepare the defence of Cork (apparantly he was friends with the barrack commander). He was then sent on a short officers course, to which he took great offence (There's some story about a junior officer lecturing them on how to break out of an encirclement and Tom standing up and telling the officer he didn't know what he was talking about). He quit the course and a couple of months later he was discharged as a private stating that his services were no longer required.

Anybody know if any of the other vets stayed on after the war?

[parkman]

I read this book.I bought it because Media Ryan [I think that's her name] did a very good one on "who shot Michael Collins" and I thought that there would have more info on Kilmichael and Crossbarry but the book was disappointing in that is just a rehash of Barry's own book--Guerilla days in Ireland and written very much from a republican point of view.
Barry held the rank of Commandant General.Anybody know if that was the same as brigadier general?
Seems he was a crusty old bugger in later life.
Anybody got any opinions on wheather he shot the wounded auxies at Kilmichael.

[Bravo20]

I don't think the issue was that he shot wounded auxies at Kilmichael, I think the contraversy is more around whether or not they surrendered. My point of view is that it was an ambush and that area where the enemy gather in an ambush isn't called the killing zone for nothing.

I equated the Commandant General rank to Major General.

[Aidan]

Wrap up.

Well the French certainly did they switched collaboration

Only some of them, there was also this organisation called the 'Resistance'. And the Free French.

So now you agree with cowardly neutrality until 1942 and then we would negotiate conditions of entry. What a climb down.

Not what I said. What I said was that we could join, not that we should.

What irks me is that they were nearly the ruination of all of Europe as they were for half of it.

Now, don't be silly.

Because the Brits believed Germany should be allowed to take its rightful place in Europe.

... being silly again!

Let's see now what stands were available in Europe at the time--Appeasement,Aggression,Neutrality,Collaboration and let's trow in the one Uncle Sam had taken--total disinterest and let's not forget your one [the best one of all]a negotiated entry into the war

Ye see, its attitudes like that that gets 6 million people dead. Morality is all very well and good. Until you have to face reality, that is.

G'luck

[parkman]

Because the Brits believed Germany should be allowed to take its rightful place in Europe.

... being silly again

Times Atlas of ww2

toodaloo

[Aidan]

Because the Brits believed

Thats nice. How many of them? Who in the administration?

If you're going to make sweeping statements about the beliefs of an entire nation (or 4 nations, to be precise), you'd better be more accurate than that.

I mean, did 'they' change their mind after September 1939? Its a ridiculous argument for one simple reason. 'They' declared war on Germany ergo, 'they' can't have all believed it.

[parkman]

Ah janey Aidan I thought we had wrapped this up but as you have put a question to me allow me to reply one last time.

Because the Brits believed Germany should be allowed to take its rightful place in Europe.

I gave you the source for this.It was an element in the appeasement policy of the Brits but if you are unhappy with it I'll withdraw it and just call appeasement what it was ---expediency.

So having set out from Munich lets finish off at Yalta where the Allies withdrew their recognition of the Polish Government.God help us ,the poor bloody Poles--fought in the Battle of Britain,at Arnhem,took Monte Cassino and took on the waffen ss in Warsaw and for that they were sold out.So we have come full circle from appeasement of Hitler at Munich to appeasment of Joe Stalin at Yalta.

I think I have made the case that expediency and self interest was the order of the day with all states and that such sentimental emotions as honour and courage played no part in the decision making and to single out Dev and accuse him of cowardice just does not stand up to reason.

Slan

[andy]

Irish 'did not plot with Nazis'

Owen Bowcott
Friday October 19, 2001
The Guardian

New light has been shed on one of the most mysterious episodes of the second world war: a plan for the Nazis to invade Northern Ireland.
A wartime MI5 investigation into the Irish government's involvement with Nazi spies concluded that there was no evidence of Dublin attempting to reach a military pact with Hitler.

The report, stamped Most Secret, suggested that a German agent, Herman Goertz, was parachuted into county Meath in May 1940 and may have made contact with several pro-German Irish army generals.

Sent to Sir E Machtig, the secretary of state at the Dominions Office in 1943, the MI5 memorandum highlights Britain's fear that the Nazis would attack from the rear.

The activities of Dr Goertz, - alias Heinz Kruse, alias K - had been closely monitored by British intelligence. He had been arrested in England in 1936 and imprisoned for espionage before being deported to Germany.

In May 1940 he was dropped into Ireland to examine the feasibility of a plan proposed to German military intelligence by Stephen Caroll Held, an IRA officer. Held had suggested the Germans invade Northern Ireland "supported by 5,000 IRA men". The venture was known as Plan Kathleen.

But shortly after arriving in Dublin, the house where Goertz was staying was raided. Held was arrested and a German airman's cap, a parachute and a wireless set were seized. Goertz escaped.

The memo contains many of the coded telegrams sent by the German legation in Dublin to Berlin following Goertz's movements."The cipher has been broken by the Irish and the results passed to us," it noted.

Goertz was arrested by Irish police in November 1941 and imprisoned. MI5 suspected, however, that Goertz had been trying to establish links to the Irish government.

General McNeill, the commander of the Irish army in the north, was said to be "the most important contact made by Goertz before his arrest". There were also suggestions of an approach to two Irish cabinet ministers.

MI5 considered no action needed to be taken. "There is no adequate evidence of any Irish government implications with German activities. On the contrary the Irish authorities appear to have been able to check German intrigues with the extremist IRA element."