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Ireland during WW2

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  • #31
    We were lucky - largely down to geography

    Absolutely

    I just think that using hindsight to condenm a decision is just a bit too previous

    Not sure, but I think that might be a paradox ...

    where were the Yanks until 41

    3000 miles further away from the action than us, either way. And they had a government that realised the seriousness of the situation, and which actively tried to get them into the war (because they realised that they /were/ involved anyway, by default)

    Any one of which would have sold us out if it suited their cause

    Sold us out to who? Do you really seriously believe that the allies would or could have done a Poland to us and left us in the grasp of the axis? If so, I suggest a geography lesson from Yellowjacket.

    Why should we have trown our lot in with colonial and totalitarian states?

    God, I don't know. Let me see. Oh yeah, Germany perhaps? Y'know, fascism, 6 million dead Jews, invading France, Belgium, Norway, Holland, Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic, Russia? That good enough reason?

    We were just lucky that things went the way they did, and the war happened around us. Had things gone even slightly differently, the Emergency would've turned into the war pdq, and all Dev's cowering would have achieved was to leave us unprotected and without allies. Nice one.

    And that isn't just an arcane or academic point, it has damn important resonances for future defense policy too.

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    • #32
      Something to speculate on: what would Ireland have done if the Germans had invaded Britain and beaten them? (as they almost certainly would have done if the Luftwaffe didn't lose the Battle of Britain)

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      • #33
        It's by no means certain Germany would have invaded Britain even if they hadn't lost the Battle of Britain. Invading Britain would have been bloody and contested every step of the way, Hitler was preoccupied with Barbarossa planning, and wouldnt have relished the distraction. He repeatedly had expressed a desire for a peace with Britain, and may have settled for a treaty with Britain that limited their military potential in future.

        That said, I'm sure Ireland would have tried to come to some sort of accomodation with the Germans if they succeeded in taking over Britain. Whether the Germans were content to leave us alone may have depended on what the Americans were doing at the time. If the Americans showed no sign of declaring war on the Germans, Ireland wouldnt have been much of a problem. If an American attack was on the cards, Ireland would have been a likely stopping off point.

        I'm glad none of it ever came about.

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        • #34
          I remember reading somewhere once that plans had been drawn up in germany for the segregation of the irish population by racial features etc and concentration camps were to be set up here if the invasion ever happened.. i even think there was a name for the operation to invade ireland....

          damnit i have to look that up again for you.
          "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
          "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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          • #35
            The plan was called Operation Green (Grun), never heard of the segregation element of it though. Robert Fisk wrote a book on the subject of Ireland during WWII, was called "In Time of War, Ireland, Ulster and the price of Neutrality, 1939-45". Fairly good. O'Halpin's 'Defending Ireland' is very good on the subject too.

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            • #36
              also look up operation "KATHLEEN" invasion of ireland. doesnt say anything about the population but i def did read something before about their plans.
              "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
              "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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              • #37
                Aidan surley it is far better to make a decision based on geography than on "honour".Individuals and tribes might go to war for honour but not states.States always act in their own self interest.Whatever about neutrality just take a look at the crowd who changed sides--France,Finland,Italy.What if the Brits had changed sides?where would we have been then.To have sided with the Brits ment we would have given up all freedom of action.We would have tied our destiny to theirs

                You point to the many states freed from totaliterism I can point to as many who spent the next 50 years under the heel of totalarism.

                You say we should have entered the war in 41.A real nice piece of opportunism.Where's your honour here?Why not [of course with the aid of hindsight] sided with the allies in 45.

                You say we were lucky ,well was it not Napoleon who put great store by luck

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                • #38
                  Oh and it just occoured to me look at what happened to the French Navy---nice allies the Brits.

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                  • #39
                    Aidan surley it is far better to make a decision based on geography than on "honour"

                    Absolutely. We're a small north western European country; during WWII we were slap bang in the middle of the theatre of conflict with close cultural ties to two other atlantic powers who were allied against the lunatic who had started this. Staying out, even then, was illogical based on geography. Had things turned out even slightly differently, we would have found ourselves directly involved, very fast, and with little defenses.

                    States always act in their own self interest.

                    'States' don't do anything, their leaders do. And leaders don't always act in the states best interest.

                    What if the Brits had changed sides?

                    Changed sides against who? Started a war against the Americans while allied with the Germans? Nice one.

                    To have sided with the Brits ment we would have given up all freedom of action.We would have tied our destiny to theirs

                    I've a newsflash for you. Our fate /was/ tied to the of the UK, one way or the other. Do you really think that, had they been over run, we'd have been ignored? Our freedom of movement was illusory, and the routes taken by our political leadership at the time served only to denude the state of defences in the name of cowardice and smallmindedness. We 'won' in the war only because the allies won. We were absolutely involved /anyway/.

                    You point to the many states freed from totaliterism I can point to as many who spent the next 50 years under the heel of totalarism.

                    So you'd prefer that everyone spent 50 years under totalitarianism, rather than just a part of the continent? Nice argument. I'll take 50 years of peace and prosperity in Western Europe and the end of the cold war in 1989-90, thanks.

                    You say we should have entered the war in 41.A real nice piece of opportunism.

                    Hello, were you not saying a while ago that states act in their own interest? Opportunism is merely the art of timing ...

                    Where's your honour here?Why not [of course with the aid of hindsight] sided with the allies in 45.

                    Why not indeed? Apart from pride of course. Y'know, the stories about Dachau had reached the press across Europe, it was clear that millions were dead, and its /still/ nothing to do with us? The honourable thing to do in 45 would have been to say, "ok, we were wrong, we should have helped fight this nutcase". But no, its a case of "Good morning Ambassador Hempel". Honour?

                    You say we were lucky ,well was it not Napoleon who put great store by luck

                    Your point being?

                    And no, I don't get bored of this ...

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                    • #40
                      I believe two lunatics started the war the other being Stalin--and you want us to choose a lunatic to side with.

                      The Brits could have done a "Vichy".As neturals we could have survived this but as a belligerent who knows.

                      In 39 we did have freedom of action.Dunkirk offered an opportunity to side with Hitler.You have no qualms about siding with lunatics do you ?

                      For every Dachau ,I can point to a gulag or forest[what was the name of that forest where our would be allies butchered the polish officer corps].The allies while fighting to liberate one part of Europe acquieced in the subjugation of the other.The war was not about rights and freedoms,honour ,pride,courage it was a clash of world powers and it was survival time for small nations.And Dev thanks to geography and luck got us through it practally unscathed.

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                      • #41
                        [what was the name of that forest where our would be allies butchered the polish officer corps]

                        The Katyn Forest.
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                        red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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                        • #42
                          That's the one---thanks

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                          • #43
                            Parkman, I think history proves you wrong with regard to Stalin starting the war. In 39 he signed a non-agression pact with Germany and it wasn't until Germany invaded that he got involved in the war. He also had a non-agression pact with Japan and didn't go up against them until 1945 (despite pressure being put on him by his allies).

                            I also disagree that we were slap bang in the middle of the conflict geographically. In fact of the neutrals we were one of the farthest i.e. Switzerland, Spain, and Sweden.

                            Hindsight is great, we all know what actually went on under the Nazi regeme, now. But how much of that information was available before the allies over ran Germany? Certainly the solidiers that found the camps were very surprised. So on that basis was there a need for us to get involved in a war involving 2 European super powers. One of which we still had political issues with.

                            On the other side I discount the comments that say we would have suffered economically if we had got involved in the war, or that we would be under a totalitarian regieme. I for one think that the descision to remain neutral was the best for the country at the time.

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                            • #44
                              The reality is the Germans knew that Invading Ireland pre 1941 could possibly bring the US into the conflict as the administration was already under pressure from the Jewish community. Ireland could NOT easily be invaded from the south, even if Cork the Major Port was WELL defended by Camden, Carlisle and Spike (Marlborough??) Island Forts, the South Coast was bereft of Beachheads. Leaving the Wexford Coast which had the Problem of tough mountain terrain between it and Cork, Dublin and The Curragh!! Then if you overran the Irish Army you had the Problem of Pushing North to The Border the British Traditional Boundry of defence of Britian agains continental invasion Hence the settlements of the 1600's, This would also be a bit of a Problem as The Irish Govt. would have instantly joined the Allies on invasion giving the British Free reign to come south and meet the Germans head on in the Midlands. With Irish Brigades already up north watching the Border for a pre-emptive uk invasion.

                              Hitler had long tried to prevent the Japanese entering the war with the US while he concentrated on Russia. But National pride and honour etc led the Japs to attack pearl harbour The Nazi's were already too busy on the Eastern front to consider Ireland as a Possible Stepping stone to the UK.

                              The Nazi's decided that the Time between Invading Ireland and Conquering it was too great for the US not to enter the war. Invading Ireland would have prevented US aid to the UK in the Long term even if the North wasn't taken.

                              We were lucky. Ireland could have been on a Par with the Bloody Italian campaigns of 43-44 with massive casualties on these shores.




                              This is Just one Possibility. It's Doubtful the
                              Friends Come and Go, but Enemies accumulate!!

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                              • #45
                                But no, its a case of "Good morning Ambassador Hempel".
                                This was done by Dev more out of spite and a sense of national pride than for issues of maintaining neutrality. Churchill had just spoken of Ireland's disloyalty in the house of commons, pandering to the Germans and the Japanese, in the context of his speech about Britain "standing firm and alone against Germany". Dev replied 3 days later with his emotive speech "Can Mr Churchill find it in his heart to recognise a small nation beside him that has stood firm for 800 years against an oppressor". Days later Hitler died and it was in this context that Dev went to offer his condolences
                                There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today Chatfield
                                Admiral of the Fleet David Beatty, 1st Earl Beatty GCB OM GCVO

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