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  1. #51
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    Well, I went from Training Wing to Engineering Wing to Maritime and Adjs were both, but the Adj in Engr Wing was a full-time one and training Wing had several, because of all it's subunits. The eternal problem with having an active pilot as an Adj is that he is always playing catch-up........with regard to currency, it was the case that pilots had to inform the system when they were due for a sim slot or a recurrency flight,not the other way around, as I recall conversations with pilots about this and even seeing letters from them to the OC Training Wing, requesting slots for recurrency. Pilots who were desk-bound used to fly a few times a year to keep their wings. I'm sure that the Don has a system that flags it, as every airline would. Certainly, the upkeep of logbooks for pilot certification began to go computerised a long time ago....the thing about double-hatting is that it's a bit of a throwback to times when Officers were expected to be all things to all men and that when a job was thrown at them, they were just expected to get on with it. It was all a bit haphazard and people were just expected to cope, no matter what came their way.................. Spider, Staff tours would really be for careerists. Anyone with a notion of moving up to a Staff post would be expected to tick off certain qualification/experience/education boxes. You'd want to make a decision fairly early in your service if you wanted to stay on and aim at higher office and it starts to get very political. The old days of waiting to fill dead men's shoes are well gone. It's not that long since the concept of going on a UN tour was alien to the Don and the notion of doing Army-style career course like the Command and Staff Course was virtually unknown. Now, going on a UN tour is regarded as compulsory just to keep the job and extra-curricular education like a degree is par for the course. In the case of pilots, if you want to stay flying, you'd probably be better off getting out and joining civil aviation.

  2. #52
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    GTTC;

    Thank You...and I am in fairness thinking of Officers who are in for the long haul.

    So Line Pilot...to Flight Commander / Training / Ops... Sqn 2 i/c...to Adj / Higher Training / DoD postings... to Sqn Commander then wherever that takes you...

    Surely out of an organisation of 80 - 90 pilots that can be managed?

    That a helicopter pilot / fixed wing pilot committed to a full career could expect to serve 3 year / 2 year alternate flying / non-flying appointments.
    Last edited by spider; 21st August 2014 at 00:59.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  3. #53
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Well aware of the role of the Adjt, hence my point, it's a busy full time job. My question is could a non-pilot be put into the role?

    The G1 (Formation level) is a Lt Col I think, I assume the Wing Adjt I assume be a Comdt and Squadron a Capt/Lt

    Would having ground rotations options work (for say someone posted to DFHQ for a few years, a 1 year UNMO tour, the 9 month Sen C&S Cse)?


    Spider, that is exactly my point!
    To me that arises either because:
    A) there aren't enough qualified pilots
    B) there aren't enough hours available to qualify them

    I suppose on way of tackling it would be to try and promote/transfer people with type training on the type operated by the squadron. Of course having well types would help.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    GTTC;

    Thank You...and I am in fairness thinking of Officers who are in for the long haul.

    So Line Pilot...to Flight Commander / Training / Ops... Sqn 2 i/c...to Adj / Higher Training / DoD postings... to Sqn Commander then wherever that takes you...

    Surely out of an organisation of 80 - 90 pilots that can be managed?

    That a helicopter pilot / fixed wing pilot committed to a full career could expect to serve 3 year / 2 year alternate flying / non-flying appointments.
    You would think it would be straight forward but in reality, the small size of the AC flying operation and the relatively large size of the Admin/Staff side means that double jobbing will always be present.

    For example it takes a long time for a pilot to attain the experience to become a CASA or LR45 Capt, this will typically also coincide with the ranks that attract staff positions, there are only a limited number of Sqdn commanders positions, therefore the pilots in staff(ground tours in other Air Arms) are required to fly as they maybe in a very small pool of guys. Also guys in that position may fly quite a bit more then other pilots as there maybe only 2-3 LR-45/CASA/G-IV/AW-139 Captains and a far larger pool of FO's.

    Its far from a perfect system but the AC has the Organisational structure of a far larger formation and in reality the total number of Aircraft is about the strength of a couple of Squadron's, but spread thinly over too many aircraft types.

    AC Pilots are Officer's first and expected to work in whatever role they are assigned.

    For info: Adjt is typically a Capt rank in the AC and Sqdr. Commanders are Comdt's

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  6. #55
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    Dev, most Adjs are non-pilots because the majority of their duties concern non-flying tasks, non-pilots and are effectively administrative managers. If there are 90 pilots, it represents a tenth of the Don's population. Ideally, pilots should only deal with flight-related items but the Don doesn't have the luxury of that....Another factor affecting pilot deployment is whether the aircraft is multi-crewed or single-pilot, required 24/7 or not, whether the pilot is an instructor or not, an aircraft captain or a co-pilot and then you throw into the mix things like leave/courses/sport/duties/health/recurrency/UN deployment,etc,etc. Rostering pilots/aircrew/mechs/ATC is a difficult juggling act at the best of times and always produces moans and they can't please everyone. Someone will always feel unfairly burdened...

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  8. #56
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Dev, most Adjs are non-pilots because the majority of their duties concern non-flying tasks, non-pilots and are effectively administrative managers. If there are 90 pilots, it represents a tenth of the Don's population. Ideally, pilots should only deal with flight-related items but the Don doesn't have the luxury of that....Another factor affecting pilot deployment is whether the aircraft is multi-crewed or single-pilot, required 24/7 or not, whether the pilot is an instructor or not, an aircraft captain or a co-pilot and then you throw into the mix things like leave/courses/sport/duties/health/recurrency/UN deployment,etc,etc. Rostering pilots/aircrew/mechs/ATC is a difficult juggling act at the best of times and always produces moans and they can't please everyone. Someone will always feel unfairly burdened...

    I wouldn't like the job in fairness!

    I suppose you need as large a pool as possible, hence my idea about freeing up trained pilots. Once they hit Lt Col, I'd imagine they are unlikely to fly operationally again (so why waste flying hours on them), use those hours to help qualify more captains etc.

    Where do the non-pilots come from?
    Pilots posted from a pilot appointment?
    Failed pilots?
    Transfers from army/NS?

    Where do Engineering officers come from?
    DEs?

  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Dev, most Adjs are non-pilots because the majority of their duties concern non-flying tasks, non-pilots and are effectively administrative managers. If there are 90 pilots, it represents a tenth of the Don's population. Ideally, pilots should only deal with flight-related items but the Don doesn't have the luxury of that....Another factor affecting pilot deployment is whether the aircraft is multi-crewed or single-pilot, required 24/7 or not, whether the pilot is an instructor or not, an aircraft captain or a co-pilot and then you throw into the mix things like leave/courses/sport/duties/health/recurrency/UN deployment,etc,etc. Rostering pilots/aircrew/mechs/ATC is a difficult juggling act at the best of times and always produces moans and they can't please everyone. Someone will always feel unfairly burdened...
    This is not true, most if not all ADj's in Bal are pilot officers. There is no dedicated Admin Officer stream in the AC, there are a couple of senior officers who are from the line but the bulk of the Admin in the AC is carried out by Pilot Officers holding admin/adj appointments as their gazetted appointments. This is part of a Pilot/Officers career development.

    Engineer officers are hired as direct entry officers from the street, these guys will typically have Aeronautical Engineering degrees or a degree in a related field.

  10. #58
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    I thought AC cadets who didn't make it through pilot training became ground officers? Are cadets who don't get their wings discharged or sent to the army?
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  11. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    I thought AC cadets who didn't make it through pilot training became ground officers? Are cadets who don't get their wings discharged or sent to the army?
    It depends when they fail the course, most have been discharged, some have been back classed (cadet school wise) and become line army officers and a couple have been commissioned into the AC and become ATC officers although that is a rare event.

    Their is no stream for those who have failed the wings course to become Line AC officers

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  13. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    It depends when they fail the course, most have been discharged, some have been back classed (cadet school wise) and become line army officers and a couple have been commissioned into the AC and become ATC officers although that is a rare event.

    Their is no stream for those who have failed the wings course to become Line AC officers
    Which is a bit of a waste

  14. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Which is a bit of a waste
    Yeh its a great shame that there isn't an admin/staff/int type of stream. But the AC is too small and the establishment is what it is, and the career path is pot luck for many guys.

  15. #62
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    I don't know what they call the units now but Admin Wing, Tech Wing and Training Wing had permanent non-pilot Adjs. They weren't retreaded failed cadets but transferred Army line officers (one guy refused to wear AC badges for years and kept his crossed rifles, until he was given a very public bollicking about same) or fellas who went directly to the Don from cadet school as line personnel (very few but it happened). The only pilot on the books of Tech Wing was the nominal Engineering pilot, whose function was to test aircraft after overhaul. This was a bit of a floating post, ie, whoever was around from BFTS or Gormo did the air test, but it did exist on the Establishment of Tech Wing......with regard to line officers, some were dumped in the Don for transgressions elsewhere and others volunteered to get away from Army line units. The Don is quite different from the Army way of doing things and it did appeal to some and not others.

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  17. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I don't know what they call the units now but Admin Wing, Tech Wing and Training Wing had permanent non-pilot Adjs. They weren't retreaded failed cadets but transferred Army line officers (one guy refused to wear AC badges for years and kept his crossed rifles, until he was given a very public bollicking about same) or fellas who went directly to the Don from cadet school as line personnel (very few but it happened). The only pilot on the books of Tech Wing was the nominal Engineering pilot, whose function was to test aircraft after overhaul. This was a bit of a floating post, ie, whoever was around from BFTS or Gormo did the air test, but it did exist on the Establishment of Tech Wing......with regard to line officers, some were dumped in the Don for transgressions elsewhere and others volunteered to get away from Army line units. The Don is quite different from the Army way of doing things and it did appeal to some and not others.
    Thats quite a bit older then even my info..

  18. #64
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    All the hierarchies/establishments tended to be a kind of straight lift from the RAF, modded to suit the Don until the change to 101 Sqn and all that. It was all quite basic and old-fashioned. When I transferred from Training Wing to Engr. Wing, after four years, I picked up a cardboard Personal file, my LA 30 and my Clothing Form and walked the hundred yards from the Aptce School admin prefab to Engr Wing's 1930s wooden hut and handed the lot to the Orderly Room Sgt. I was already six months in the hangar but this was the paper transfer and he rang the prefab I had just left, said "he's ours now" and wrote my name on a whiteboard in a little slot on the Establishment. I was then sent to the QM to hand in my Clothing File. So, I was now officially in Engr. Wing. The same ritual was carried out by my classmates, all 47 of us. Sad thing was, quite a few collected their educational certs from the School, confirmed that they were now qualified techs and their apprenticeship was over and promptly handed in their papers to buy themselves out. Four years to the day. Four years later, 12 left....30 years later, there's three left. Wasn't exactly a shining light of retention.

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  20. #65
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    An EC135 on an Inland Fisheries patrol.

    "After a lifetime researching our waterways, Dr Martin O'Grady is retiring. Irish Independent photographer Mark Condren joined him for his final flight with the Air Corps."



    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-30994800.html

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  22. #66
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    An Air Corps EC135 carrying out a Medevac this morning on Croagh Patrick.


    Attached Images Attached Images

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  24. #67
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    Ah yes, the annual march of the lemmings.
    Interesting that the Air Corps fuel truck, with the hi-viz rear markings, also has the low light driving marker.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  26. #68
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    i very vaguely remember being in convoy with it at one point for an ex .

    Why is an EC135 doing that and not an IRCG bird ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  28. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    i very vaguely remember being in convoy with it at one point for an ex .

    Why is an EC135 doing that and not an IRCG bird ?
    Because it's religious?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  29. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    i very vaguely remember being in convoy with it at one point for an ex .

    Why is an EC135 doing that and not an IRCG bird ?
    Presumably because it is a day long tasking

  30. #71
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    the point being ... ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  31. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Presumably because it is a day long tasking
    You might have answered a question I was about to ask .....

    Was the refuelling truck and the EC135 on standby close to Croagh Patrick for the day?

    I had assumed the EC135 had come from Baldonnel
    Last edited by Orion; 30th July 2017 at 20:31. Reason: far too many llllls

  32. #73
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    the point being ... ?
    The Silgo IRCG helo would be unavailable for other taskings

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  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post

    Why is an EC135 doing that and not an IRCG bird ?
    RESCUE118 & ECHO 271 were on call there today. RESCUE118 brought someone off there in the morning to UH Galway.

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  36. #75
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    There are so many casualties to be taken from the reek every year for this event it is better to keep the heli dedicated, nearby.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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