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  • #46
    Would the Adjt also be a pilot (who has to maintain currency (at a cost (not just financial but flying hours are limited so operational pilots (and aircraft) have more hours available to them).

    Adjt would be a full time job anyway (that Offr shouldn't have time for flying) as would say being a recruit platoon commander, but being on a Captain GoH could be 1-2 hours a day for 2 weeks (or whatever), same with Int Offr (a few hours a week) or Mess Treasurer.

    Why?
    Pilots available for rostering 24/7
    Very expensively trained resources
    More available in order to log more hours & maintain currency in all procedures

    Maybe the maintainers could be doing 24/7 duties in the hangers to get aircraft out of routine maintenance quicker (especially the longer maintenance).

    But point taken on duties, everyone should do their share.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by DeV View Post

      Maybe the maintainers could be doing 24/7 duties in the hangers to get aircraft out of routine maintenance quicker (especially the longer maintenance).
      Would make a massive difference and be far more efficient.
      24/7 maintenance is the norm now for all large commercial operators. There would be massive resistance to this from within though.

      Comment


      • #48
        Dev, the Adjutant would be a non-pilot and a large barracks or camp might have a Camp Adjutant, to whom Unit Adjs report. To use a political metaphor, he'd be the Chief Whip, acting as guard dog to the Taoiseach and keeping the troops in line. He'd have a Military role as a Company or Platoon Commander and an admin role as organiser in chief. No event in a barracks would happen, be it military such as range practise or administrative like preparing for a GoH, unless it passed across his desk and he allocated manpower in discussion with the relevant unit heads. Now, a pilot could function as an Adjutant on a ground tour, such as if he, in the Don, was doing a rotation through the Recruit Training Depot or the Apprentice School. It's quite a pivotal position because it suits those who love moving and shaking and acting indispensable and being managerial. The Adj tends to know everyone and also knows where the bodies are buried.
        With regard to shifts for techs, it has happened in the Don but not in the scale practised in other air arms. The whole tech side underwent a radical overhaul in the last 20 years, to an extent practically unrecognisable to my generation of the 80s/90s. Being on shifts is normal because the changes in the fleet, such as the adoption of the Casas demanded it and the need for a 24/7 routine for helicopters. The Don learned a lot from the operation of the Garda helis, as well as from the need for 24/7 air ambulance and so on. It's not quite on a par with civil aircraft engineering in airlines or the kind of operation practised in the RAF and USAF, who have had shifts in aircraft engineering since the 1950s and who make extensive use of civil contractors such as Marshalls or BAe, but it's getting more and more like it as time passes. It's a hell of a lot better than it was, as the older breed fade out and a lot of the entrenched ideas die out.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          Dev, the Adjutant would be a non-pilot and a large barracks or camp might have a Camp Adjutant, to whom Unit Adjs report. To use a political metaphor, he'd be the Chief Whip, acting as guard dog to the Taoiseach and keeping the troops in line. He'd have a Military role as a Company or Platoon Commander and an admin role as organiser in chief. No event in a barracks would happen, be it military such as range practise or administrative like preparing for a GoH, unless it passed across his desk and he allocated manpower in discussion with the relevant unit heads. Now, a pilot could function as an Adjutant on a ground tour, such as if he, in the Don, was doing a rotation through the Recruit Training Depot or the Apprentice School. It's quite a pivotal position because it suits those who love moving and shaking and acting indispensable and being managerial. The Adj tends to know everyone and also knows where the bodies are buried.
          With regard to shifts for techs, it has happened in the Don but not in the scale practised in other air arms. The whole tech side underwent a radical overhaul in the last 20 years, to an extent practically unrecognisable to my generation of the 80s/90s. Being on shifts is normal because the changes in the fleet, such as the adoption of the Casas demanded it and the need for a 24/7 routine for helicopters. The Don learned a lot from the operation of the Garda helis, as well as from the need for 24/7 air ambulance and so on. It's not quite on a par with civil aircraft engineering in airlines or the kind of operation practised in the RAF and USAF, who have had shifts in aircraft engineering since the 1950s and who make extensive use of civil contractors such as Marshalls or BAe, but it's getting more and more like it as time passes. It's a hell of a lot better than it was, as the older breed fade out and a lot of the entrenched ideas die out.
          The adjutant in the flying wings is a pilot officer, it is not considered a "ground tour" such a term really doesn't exist in the AC and in the Adjutant would typically also be a sqdn pilot trying to fit his flying duties around his office job. Pilot Officers would also be the adjutant in non flying units and again trying to fit there flying into their schedule. Depending on which aircraft type the pilot was on and how over strength the AC may be pilot wise on that aircraft may make a position such as a staff officer a non-flying appointment but only by virtue of the fact that the flying duties are well covered by the remainder of the typed pilots. The next Pilot to hold that same appointment may be more in demand on the flying side and therefore continue to fly. Their have even been cases of a Sqdn Commander in a Heli Sqdn who's flying is on the CASA, or OC FTS who was a Lear Pilot.

          In reality there are no hard and fast rules and the Pilots are moved around and utilised as the AC see's fit, they then try and keep their flying career on track as best they can. Typically Pilots who are commanders on the CASA, G-IV or Lear can be posted anywhere and still maintain there flying status for others with lesser experience or where there are abundance of type qualified pilots it can be very different.

          Comment


          • #50
            Sorry to interject in a discussion which I am absolutely not qualified to comment on.

            But...was this 'double hatting' not an issue which arose in the aftermath of the PC-9 accident?

            That the OC of the Squadron involved was also a pilot on the Government Jet...and in fact wasn't himself qualified to fly the aircraft type he was on paper commanding?

            Page 33 ff http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/fil...2011_016-0.PDF

            So why not have clearly defined flying / 'Staff' tours?

            EG a helicopter pilot serves a tour flying...then administering...before returning to flying in a more senior position etc etc

            How many pilots does the Irish Air Corps need to meet its daily obligation's?

            How hard would it be for non operational pilots to remain current?
            'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

            Comment


            • #51
              Well, I went from Training Wing to Engineering Wing to Maritime and Adjs were both, but the Adj in Engr Wing was a full-time one and training Wing had several, because of all it's subunits. The eternal problem with having an active pilot as an Adj is that he is always playing catch-up........with regard to currency, it was the case that pilots had to inform the system when they were due for a sim slot or a recurrency flight,not the other way around, as I recall conversations with pilots about this and even seeing letters from them to the OC Training Wing, requesting slots for recurrency. Pilots who were desk-bound used to fly a few times a year to keep their wings. I'm sure that the Don has a system that flags it, as every airline would. Certainly, the upkeep of logbooks for pilot certification began to go computerised a long time ago....the thing about double-hatting is that it's a bit of a throwback to times when Officers were expected to be all things to all men and that when a job was thrown at them, they were just expected to get on with it. It was all a bit haphazard and people were just expected to cope, no matter what came their way.................. Spider, Staff tours would really be for careerists. Anyone with a notion of moving up to a Staff post would be expected to tick off certain qualification/experience/education boxes. You'd want to make a decision fairly early in your service if you wanted to stay on and aim at higher office and it starts to get very political. The old days of waiting to fill dead men's shoes are well gone. It's not that long since the concept of going on a UN tour was alien to the Don and the notion of doing Army-style career course like the Command and Staff Course was virtually unknown. Now, going on a UN tour is regarded as compulsory just to keep the job and extra-curricular education like a degree is par for the course. In the case of pilots, if you want to stay flying, you'd probably be better off getting out and joining civil aviation.

              Comment


              • #52
                GTTC;

                Thank You...and I am in fairness thinking of Officers who are in for the long haul.

                So Line Pilot...to Flight Commander / Training / Ops... Sqn 2 i/c...to Adj / Higher Training / DoD postings... to Sqn Commander then wherever that takes you...

                Surely out of an organisation of 80 - 90 pilots that can be managed?

                That a helicopter pilot / fixed wing pilot committed to a full career could expect to serve 3 year / 2 year alternate flying / non-flying appointments.
                Last edited by spider; 21 August 2014, 01:59.
                'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                Comment


                • #53
                  Well aware of the role of the Adjt, hence my point, it's a busy full time job. My question is could a non-pilot be put into the role?

                  The G1 (Formation level) is a Lt Col I think, I assume the Wing Adjt I assume be a Comdt and Squadron a Capt/Lt

                  Would having ground rotations options work (for say someone posted to DFHQ for a few years, a 1 year UNMO tour, the 9 month Sen C&S Cse)?


                  Spider, that is exactly my point!
                  To me that arises either because:
                  A) there aren't enough qualified pilots
                  B) there aren't enough hours available to qualify them

                  I suppose on way of tackling it would be to try and promote/transfer people with type training on the type operated by the squadron. Of course having well types would help.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by spider View Post
                    GTTC;

                    Thank You...and I am in fairness thinking of Officers who are in for the long haul.

                    So Line Pilot...to Flight Commander / Training / Ops... Sqn 2 i/c...to Adj / Higher Training / DoD postings... to Sqn Commander then wherever that takes you...

                    Surely out of an organisation of 80 - 90 pilots that can be managed?

                    That a helicopter pilot / fixed wing pilot committed to a full career could expect to serve 3 year / 2 year alternate flying / non-flying appointments.
                    You would think it would be straight forward but in reality, the small size of the AC flying operation and the relatively large size of the Admin/Staff side means that double jobbing will always be present.

                    For example it takes a long time for a pilot to attain the experience to become a CASA or LR45 Capt, this will typically also coincide with the ranks that attract staff positions, there are only a limited number of Sqdn commanders positions, therefore the pilots in staff(ground tours in other Air Arms) are required to fly as they maybe in a very small pool of guys. Also guys in that position may fly quite a bit more then other pilots as there maybe only 2-3 LR-45/CASA/G-IV/AW-139 Captains and a far larger pool of FO's.

                    Its far from a perfect system but the AC has the Organisational structure of a far larger formation and in reality the total number of Aircraft is about the strength of a couple of Squadron's, but spread thinly over too many aircraft types.

                    AC Pilots are Officer's first and expected to work in whatever role they are assigned.

                    For info: Adjt is typically a Capt rank in the AC and Sqdr. Commanders are Comdt's

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Dev, most Adjs are non-pilots because the majority of their duties concern non-flying tasks, non-pilots and are effectively administrative managers. If there are 90 pilots, it represents a tenth of the Don's population. Ideally, pilots should only deal with flight-related items but the Don doesn't have the luxury of that....Another factor affecting pilot deployment is whether the aircraft is multi-crewed or single-pilot, required 24/7 or not, whether the pilot is an instructor or not, an aircraft captain or a co-pilot and then you throw into the mix things like leave/courses/sport/duties/health/recurrency/UN deployment,etc,etc. Rostering pilots/aircrew/mechs/ATC is a difficult juggling act at the best of times and always produces moans and they can't please everyone. Someone will always feel unfairly burdened...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                        Dev, most Adjs are non-pilots because the majority of their duties concern non-flying tasks, non-pilots and are effectively administrative managers. If there are 90 pilots, it represents a tenth of the Don's population. Ideally, pilots should only deal with flight-related items but the Don doesn't have the luxury of that....Another factor affecting pilot deployment is whether the aircraft is multi-crewed or single-pilot, required 24/7 or not, whether the pilot is an instructor or not, an aircraft captain or a co-pilot and then you throw into the mix things like leave/courses/sport/duties/health/recurrency/UN deployment,etc,etc. Rostering pilots/aircrew/mechs/ATC is a difficult juggling act at the best of times and always produces moans and they can't please everyone. Someone will always feel unfairly burdened...

                        I wouldn't like the job in fairness!

                        I suppose you need as large a pool as possible, hence my idea about freeing up trained pilots. Once they hit Lt Col, I'd imagine they are unlikely to fly operationally again (so why waste flying hours on them), use those hours to help qualify more captains etc.

                        Where do the non-pilots come from?
                        Pilots posted from a pilot appointment?
                        Failed pilots?
                        Transfers from army/NS?

                        Where do Engineering officers come from?
                        DEs?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                          Dev, most Adjs are non-pilots because the majority of their duties concern non-flying tasks, non-pilots and are effectively administrative managers. If there are 90 pilots, it represents a tenth of the Don's population. Ideally, pilots should only deal with flight-related items but the Don doesn't have the luxury of that....Another factor affecting pilot deployment is whether the aircraft is multi-crewed or single-pilot, required 24/7 or not, whether the pilot is an instructor or not, an aircraft captain or a co-pilot and then you throw into the mix things like leave/courses/sport/duties/health/recurrency/UN deployment,etc,etc. Rostering pilots/aircrew/mechs/ATC is a difficult juggling act at the best of times and always produces moans and they can't please everyone. Someone will always feel unfairly burdened...
                          This is not true, most if not all ADj's in Bal are pilot officers. There is no dedicated Admin Officer stream in the AC, there are a couple of senior officers who are from the line but the bulk of the Admin in the AC is carried out by Pilot Officers holding admin/adj appointments as their gazetted appointments. This is part of a Pilot/Officers career development.

                          Engineer officers are hired as direct entry officers from the street, these guys will typically have Aeronautical Engineering degrees or a degree in a related field.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I thought AC cadets who didn't make it through pilot training became ground officers? Are cadets who don't get their wings discharged or sent to the army?
                            Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
                              I thought AC cadets who didn't make it through pilot training became ground officers? Are cadets who don't get their wings discharged or sent to the army?
                              It depends when they fail the course, most have been discharged, some have been back classed (cadet school wise) and become line army officers and a couple have been commissioned into the AC and become ATC officers although that is a rare event.

                              Their is no stream for those who have failed the wings course to become Line AC officers

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                                It depends when they fail the course, most have been discharged, some have been back classed (cadet school wise) and become line army officers and a couple have been commissioned into the AC and become ATC officers although that is a rare event.

                                Their is no stream for those who have failed the wings course to become Line AC officers
                                Which is a bit of a waste

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