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  1. #1
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    Working for free

    Seeing as ATCA slave labour is now on the cards for the RDF, what is the general opinion on the following scenario.

    Reservist “A” is a bus driver. It’s a Monday morning and he drives a bus from 0900-1700. There is flooding in the town he lives in and his unit has been mobilised to provide ATCA. Reservist “A” decides he can volunteer some time after work to assist his unit within his Reserve capacity. So goes home, puts on his uniform and heads out to join his unit.

    While with his unit providing ATCA, the situation escalates and so does the need for DF resources. By midnight Reservist “A” is tired, knowing full well he needs to go home to get some rest before work tomorrow. He approaches his NCO to request to leave, but the last order from the OC who is away on other matters is for everyone to man their posts until further orders.

    What does Reservist “A” do?

    If he goes home regardless, deciding that his civilian job is more important, is he then not disobeying lawful orders and effectively going AWOL? Under Sec.119 on the Defence Act 1954, Reservist “A” is subject to Military Law and can be arrested and detained for being in breach of it.
    If detained beyond 0900, who is accountable to Reservist “A's” employer if Reservist “A” no longer has the liberty to go to work?

    If Reservist “A” continues in his role providing ATCA, and his duty goes beyond 0900 the following morning. Is Reservist “A” accountable to his employer (by employment contract) or the DF (by military law) first? Who compensates the employer for the loss of resource?

    If Reservist “A” is relieved from his duties at 0800hrs, only to report his civilian work an hour later at 0900hrs, the Reservist having been exempt the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 as a member of the DF is effectively legally obliged to work.
    Is Reservist “A” having not slept in 24hrs now legally considered responsible for driving a bus for the next 8 hours?

    If Reservist “A” were to crash the bus by falling asleep at the wheel, resulting in injury and/or fatality. Who is responsible for the condition of the driver that led to the crash?
    The bus company provided adequate rest off time for Reservist “A”.
    Reservist “A” having volunteered some of his time to ATCA in a Reserve capacity was legally obliged to stay longer than he had intended under military law at the behest of the DF.
    The Defence Forces are exempt the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997, and can’t be responsible for what Reservist “A” does once he’s released from his duties.


    Discuss.....
    Last edited by SwiftandSure; 28th November 2012 at 15:11. Reason: Pedantic Prickery

  2. #2
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    The RDF will NOT be doing ATCP tasks.

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  4. #3
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Replace atcp with ATCA, if I read the thread correctly.

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  6. #4
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    The RDF will NOT be doing ATCP tasks.
    Especially if it puts our jobs at risk!
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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  8. #5
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    OP changed to reflect ATCA, the questions still stand.

  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    OP changed to reflect ATCA, the questions still stand.
    You should allso change the thread title to - Doing Voluntary work as a Volunteer in a Voluntary organisation.

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  11. #7
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    S&S has raised some very valid queries regarding the proposals put forward by the VFM. they spouted some possibility of us doing ATCA work for free but theres no hint that any of the items that he has raised were actually considered or was that bit just a wet dream by one of the producers of this POS document?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Doing Voluntary work as a Volunteer in a Voluntary organisation.
    ...Where you cannot voluntarily leave unless officially dismissed at the risk of losing one's liberty.

    It's military service under military law with no remuneration for said service, not shaking a bucket for Oxfam

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  15. #9
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    how would you lose youe liberty?

  16. #10
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser View Post
    how would you lose youe liberty?
    Military law. When under same, one is liable to many punishments, including imprisonment, for desertion.

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  18. #11
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    desertion is over a longer period of time.
    a member of the rdf going to the digger now that would get peoples gums flapping.

  19. #12
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    if he went down to the "atca" voluntarily and hadnt been detailed to parade i think he might beat the 120 on a technicality

  20. #13
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    I assume you would still be liable to be charged under military law for walking away contrary to a superiors order to remain where you were?

    In military terminology, desertion is the abandonment of a "duty" or post without permission and is done with the intention of not returning. "Absence Without Leave" (AWOL) can refer to either desertion or a temporary absence.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  22. #14
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    that might be disertion on wikipedia
    but in the idf
    first your absent and only after a longer period of time(not sure the amount of time) but its a couple of weeks your a deserter

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  24. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    ...Where you cannot voluntarily leave unless officially dismissed at the risk of losing one's liberty.

    It's military service under military law with no remuneration for said service, not shaking a bucket for Oxfam
    The RDF CANNOT be called out for ATCA tasks unless they are called out on permanent service during a state of emergency.
    So if there is a flood you will have to Volunteer your services just like other similar Voluntary organisations like the Civil Defence and RNLI have always done.
    Last edited by Rhodes; 28th November 2012 at 17:22.

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  26. #16
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    The RDF CANNOT be called out for ATCA tasks unless they are called out on permanent service during a state of emergency.
    So if there is a flood you will have to Volunteer your services just like other similer Voluntary organisations like the Civil Defence and RNLI have aways done.
    Fair point, hadn't thought about it that way.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  27. #17
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I've done ATCA on FTT

  28. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser View Post
    that might be disertion on wikipedia
    but in the idf
    first your absent and only after a longer period of time(not sure the amount of time) but its a couple of weeks your a deserter

    To prove desertion, you need to prove that the person had no intention of ever coming back, in essence it is very difficult to prove desertion, unless some actually says "and I am never coming back"

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  30. #19
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Cutting through the shite.......


    s responsible for the condition of the driver that led to the crash?
    The driver / reservist is the person ultimately responsible.

    He should have declared himself unfit due to circumstances beyond his control. If there had been a mobilization order it could be used to mitigate his circumstances but if he knowingly volunteered, he must accept the responsibility.

    It has to be accepted that if persons want to serve as reservists, given the lack of employment protection and agreed protocols with the private sector ,given neither party are prepared to accommodate the needs of the reservist while in either role that the reservist is accepting full responsibility for any such issues himself.

    Damned if you do...damned if you don't!
    Just visiting

  31. #20
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    true
    then its down to your co.s discretion. unless its court marshal ..
    dev what atca have you done ?

  32. #21
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    it'll be a reservist sending yez to the digger ! sauce for the goose etc. Reservists have done ATCP for donkeys there is no bar on it. Just because they don't do them now because of the politics. Some people have short memories. Genuine ATCP.

    And I'm not talking about the beat in a guardroom, BOS or O/O
    Last edited by trellheim; 28th November 2012 at 21:04.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  34. #22
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If it was anything it would be absence.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser View Post
    dev what atca have you done ?
    Forest fire fighting, tasked by the correct authority (both civvy and DF), we were the closest asset.
    Last edited by DeV; 28th November 2012 at 22:17.

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  36. #23
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    Wonder if COs on the up will detail their units to do free work and in consequence free work will end up a criteria for courses/prom/posts etc.

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  38. #24
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    danno, doing stuff for free has always been a factor in getting promotion in the DF 9and plenty of other jobs), ie, being seen to do more than what was asked, after hours,etc,etc. Being left with no option but to do it for free is a cynical abuse of goodwill.

    regards
    GttC

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  40. #25
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    Probably a profile will emerge of the type of member who is most likely to fit in with the free regime and clones be the desired new/retained entrants (if ever any).Hope somebody realises there is a diff between ATCA and charity /social type activities.

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