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  • #31
    Originally posted by FoxtrotRK View Post
    Not sure how that'd be immediately translatable to the RDF.
    I would imagine quite simply.

    Firstly members of the RNLI all make themselves available when needed.
    If you are not willing to do that then you don't join. Same could and by the looks will apply to the RDF.

    Secondly we have paid rescue services but when needed the RNLI jumps in and augments the services.
    We have a paid DF so when needed the reserve should step up and augment the service. What ever that might mean.

    Thirdly the members of the RNLI attend regular training with out looking for payments.
    The RDF has always done this but there was the Grat and there still is the paid FTT.

    I have never heard of members of the Coast Guard services complain that members of the RNLI are trying to take their jobs, has anyone?
    But at the mere mention of RDF doing something worthwhile for free we have RDF members going nuts and crying into their milk about being asked to work for free and the PDF members going on about taking foood from their mouths.

    What a load of Boll**ks!!!!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by FoxtrotRK View Post
      Not sure how that'd be immediately translatable to the RDF.

      In the event of the RDF being given a greater role in ATCA, perhaps ask them to contribute to a rota to supplement any ATCA efforts their PDF parent units are involved in, on a voluntary basis? Could be with a target of even just a section, or individual bodies?
      For ATCA it would be better to look at how the Civil Defence operate. I was really only looking at the RNLI to see how they operate and still have full-time jobs.

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      • #33
        I would imagine, ATCA request goes to CO (obviously PDF) and he asks RDF coy comdrs to provide as many as possible or x amount.

        Don't forget RDF turned up to offer assistance in Limerick during the floods a few years ago and were turned away!

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        • #34
          he asks RDF coy comdrs
          There's a verb there, that'll need to change, I'd say, from "asks" to "tells" ...
          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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          • #35
            True

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DeV View Post
              I would imagine, ATCA request goes to CO (obviously PDF) and he asks RDF coy comdrs to provide as many as possible or x amount.

              Don't forget RDF turned up to offer assistance in Limerick during the floods a few years ago and were turned away!
              Originally posted by trellheim View Post
              There's a verb there, that'll need to change, I'd say, from "asks" to "tells" ...
              So what happens when O.C. 12 Bn tells the RDF Company Commander he wants 30 bodies to aid the flood defences in Clonmel ?

              What will happen if those 30 bodies cant be found for work/family/short notice/cant be bothered reasons ?

              Just one scenario, can easily happen and leads to a breakdown in trust between the PDF and RDF if it is percieved that they cant be relied upon.

              Its already happened in Kilkenny where the RDF couldnt be trusted to turn up for duties.
              Anyone need a spleen ?

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              • #37
                OC 12 Bn will ask his reserve Coy comdrs can they supply troops.The RDF will either volunteer if they can(work commitments etc)or they wont.
                Then the rest of the Bn will get on with it.Like we always have.It would be nice in those situations to have extra bods but no biggie if we can't get them
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by apod View Post
                  OC 12 Bn will ask his reserve Coy comdrs can they supply troops.The RDF will either volunteer if they can(work commitments etc)or they wont.
                  Then the rest of the Bn will get on with it.Like we always have.It would be nice in those situations to have extra bods but no biggie if we can't get them
                  My query was mainly in response to Kermits remark about changing "asks" to "tells" . But in all likelyhood like you say , any requests for rdf bods will only be that, a request to supply troops rather than an order to.
                  Last edited by ollie; 30 November 2012, 17:47.
                  Anyone need a spleen ?

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                  • #39
                    In my very humble opinion ATCA = non runner.
                    On our parade night this week the question of doing ATCA or working in a barracks unpaid was asked of those present, 100% answered NO.
                    Why should members of the RDF go out & shovel snow etc for nothing beside a council employee who gets paid to do exactly the same, similarly with the doing of work in a barracks as suggested in the VFM report or use civvie skills either? On the matter of civvie skills, for years we were told our civvie skills weren't recognised in the DF and now they want us to use them free gratis when people with those skills have paid hard earned money to get those qualifications.
                    I had a quick read of the VFM which examined a number of options in relation to the RDF but one option I don't recall reading about is upskilling RDF members to do tasks such as CIT, prision guard etc instead of taking on more PDF members, though that would have required employment protection legislation and was cowered away from.
                    I am very well aware that the Civil Defence do stewarding at events etc and do not get paid but they knew that when signing on the dotted line, RDF members didn't.
                    It might also get very interesting with the Dept of Social Welfare if unemployed RDF members go out and do ATCA, when you are signing you are stating you are available for employment but will an over zealous Social Welfare officer see it that way?
                    Interesting times ahead and much to be thrashed out.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                      For ATCA it would be better to look at how the Civil Defence operate. I was really only looking at the RNLI to see how they operate and still have full-time jobs.
                      We had RNLI personnel employed in our business. It was an understanding made with ourselves (employer) and the RNLI crew member (employee)

                      However. The vast majority if not all RNLI crews operate in their own specific area and are in the vast majority connected to the maritime sphere of that location. They volunteer as they have a connection to the sea and the people who operate in the marine environment of that location.

                      It is a registered charity and I fail to see how it has relevance to a formal national entity such as the Defence Forces. Unless you think the DF needs to be viewed as a charity now
                      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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                      • #41
                        That's absolutely true about the RNLI, Zulu. The volunteers are entirely in their element and live close at hand (45 minute call out or less, something like that). they also enjoy the unrivalled support of the population, which the RDF does not. Their chance to make ATCA glory for themselves was presented by the 09 snow and the State showed that it didn't want to mobilise them, even for free. So if the Regulars and DoD didn't want to use them, in a national crisis,who else does? The only way to make the RDF work as a genuine National Guard style Reserve is to totally integrate them into every DF regular unit, as an extra Company per battalion or whatver sub-unit you like, which would require employment protection or similar, as well as a proper standard of pay, as well as automatic recognition of civvie qualifications. Which is never going to happen.
                        Sorry, I think the RDF is going to die a slow death.

                        regards
                        GttC

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                        • #42
                          Why all the talk of employment protection?

                          I want to be able to keep my full time job thanks very much because in the current jobs market if you were running a small business and you had the choice all things being equal between 2 candidates for a job which would you choose?

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                          • #43
                            Why all the talk of employment protection?

                            Because the DF now have you by the bollocks if you want to be a reservist.

                            Insted of you being able to plan your training around your time off they will plan your training around when it suits them, the two won't always coincide and you will have absolutely no input as those planning such events will do it around times it suits them to take part, without having the flexibility to roster people to train reservists over weekends.

                            If the RDF can retain its own qualified instructors and keep them qualified and up to date that will work with somethings, but upskilling is going to be interesting and RDF being expected to carry out course along side PDF will put a lot out of the loop straight away.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                              That's absolutely true about the RNLI, Zulu. The volunteers are entirely in their element and live close at hand (45 minute call out or less, something like that). they also enjoy the unrivalled support of the population, which the RDF does not.
                              How do they get the support of the population? They didn't get it by refusing to help the population when asked because they don't get paid or have employment protection.

                              Their chance to make ATCA glory for themselves was presented by the 09 snow and the State showed that it didn't want to mobilise them, even for free. So if the Regulars and DoD didn't want to use them, in a national crisis,who else does?
                              The RDF CANNOT be called out for ATCA tasks unless they are called out on permanent service during a state of emergency.

                              The only way to make the RDF work as a genuine National Guard style Reserve is to totally integrate them into every DF regular unit, as an extra Company per battalion or whatver sub-unit you like, which would require employment protection or similar, as well as a proper standard of pay, as well as automatic recognition of civvie qualifications. Which is never going to happen.
                              Are you referring to the US National Guard?
                              The US National Guard do the same full training as the US army. They do not have an integrated structure and have separate units up to Division level.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                                Because the DF now have you by the bollocks if you want to be a reservist.

                                Insted of you being able to plan your training around your time off they will plan your training around when it suits them, the two won't always coincide and you will have absolutely no input as those planning such events will do it around times it suits them to take part, without having the flexibility to roster people to train reservists over weekends.

                                If the RDF can retain its own qualified instructors and keep them qualified and up to date that will work with somethings, but upskilling is going to be interesting and RDF being expected to carry out course along side PDF will put a lot out of the loop straight away.
                                They always did.

                                Rhodes, I've done ATCA on FTT, so it can be done.

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