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  1. #26
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    An incident I remember clearly was when I had just marched the platoon on to the stores, everyone signing out rifles,others fell back in, the weather was torrential rain so I said fall out and get cover, not 60 seconds layer bang , one of the guard let of a ND right over were in had the troops fell in. Close call.

    What happened after it is hear you say? She was brought to speak to see DF councillor to she if she was ok. ....same one didn't give a ****

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnight oil View Post
    Every officer I have ever known that has had an ND has wound up in front of the GOC. Doesnt mean the troops got told about it though and rightly so IMO.
    The issue/problem will never get sorted if it is being hushed up,no stats are being generated and the DF is wide open to claims of having a systemic problem by angry next of kin.

  3. #28
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    One time, the guard was being changed in Baldonnel and it was lashing rain so everybody crowded into the guardhouse. One beaut, who particularly liked to hold his FN vertical, beirut-style, let a round off, which ricochetted ceiling-floor-ceiling in the centre of the crowded room. For a second or two after the banging, you could have heard a pin drop, then the gun was removed at fist and boot point from the idiot's grasp. I think at the time the fine was a pound, but I'd say he's forgotten the fine by now but not the shoeing...

    regards
    GttC

    ND or not, officer punishments tend not to be published for the scruff to read but to tend to leak out.

  4. #29
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    I think there are different tpyes or causes for NDs, In normal circumstances ATCP , guards etc weapons are carried loaded but not cocked and locked. For an ND to happen in those circumstances implies that the guys is either messing about with the weapon or does not know how to handle the weapon and has somehow inadvertently put a round up the breach when loading the rifle. (( How I dont know)
    On the other hand when carrying cocked and perhaps with safety off ( or as it will be pointed out to me the change lever in the firing position) an ND can happen especially when the nerves are jangly and you are bricking it. This can happen and is understandable to a degree. ..
    Service rifles are usually simple straight forward and fairly safe devices , pistols a bit more complicated, ( try carry an 1911 cocked and locked all the time,) sub machine guns, a mixture, some are death traps but thay are quickly disappearing from the scene, Machine guns and the like very dependent on mtce and how tehy are handles.
    Grenades etc , Just dont have any near u unless u know where they came from , lets say the reliabilty of some "curry falvoured stuff " is so questionable that u are safer without them..
    Officers should be flogged if they have NDs , just think how much has been invested in them and then they cannot safely handle a weapon.

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  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

    ND or not, officer punishments tend not to be published for the scruff to read but to tend to leak out.
    They are always published in R/Os. How many people read R/Os is a different issue

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  8. #31
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    I have personally witnessed 3 ND's in my career. One by a young 2-star private (with a blank) which resulted in a charge. ND's 2 and 3 were by a junior officer and a senior NCO respectively, on the same trip overseas, both witnessed by a superior, and neither one resulted in a charge. The precedent on that trip had been set when the YO got away with it I think.

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  10. #32
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    Well, with regard to Officer punishments, I know from experience that when officers were charged and awarded punishments, it was not published in ROs but the "word" was soon out, anyway. One individual, a pilot, was grounded for a year after an incident. As for NDs, they should always be pounced upon and charged against, as should any messing about with firearms. We had one NCO in the Depot who always went mad, and rightly so, if he heard fellas playing with bolts or magazines, as young guys are inclined to do. He was not shy about bollocking anyone who digressed, even YOs. People learned to treat weapons with respect.

    regards
    GttC

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  12. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

    ND or not, officer punishments tend not to be published for the scruff to read but to tend to leak out.
    Or don't find out as said officer is banished to a unit that is as far away from where they want to be based as is possible.

  13. #34
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    True. I can think of at least two "party hat" Officers who ended up in the Don, as an alternative to getting the shove. The Don often became the final resting place of the careers of those who were regarded as lost causes. An ancient tradition in all militaries, transfer out the losers and the deadbeats.

    regards
    GttC

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Well, with regard to Officer punishments, I know from experience that when officers were charged and awarded punishments, it was not published in ROs but the "word" was soon out, anyway. One individual, a pilot, was grounded for a year after an incident. As for NDs, they should always be pounced upon and charged against, as should any messing about with firearms. We had one NCO in the Depot who always went mad, and rightly so, if he heard fellas playing with bolts or magazines, as young guys are inclined to do. He was not shy about bollocking anyone who digressed, even YOs. People learned to treat weapons with respect.
    Totally agree... I can remember almost hopping off a clown who used to be in our mob, on the range one day. After having warned troops the training night before the
    shoot NOT to hold the cocking handle while releasing the action forward on the Steyr (those in the know will know the consequences of doing this, I'm not elaborating here), this
    gobshite did it three times with the expected result. He subsequently enlisted in the PDF. Hopefully, they knocked the habit out of him there... :(
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  16. #36
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    Officers should be flogged if they have NDs
    agreed!

    True. I can think of at least two "party hat" Officers who ended up in the Don
    I can think of one or two flyboys who ended their days in line units because of their mishaps in aeroplanes.

    I've seen a DE officer treated to a pair of NDs because he failed to understand what he was doing while dismounting a pair of sentries and wouldn't listen to the advice of the pair.

    Controlled NDS shall we call it.


    I trained a young fella many years ago who had an ND with an FN, very stupid indeed and fatigue played a big part in it as he had been on the go for 24hrs prior to the incident.

    Someone wanted him charged but I refused on the grounds that I was equally responsible for not being aware of how knackered he was and failing to ensure that he had been fully monitored while in possesion of the weapons given the limited training he had.

    My point being that over familiarity with weapons often leads to incidents due to overconfidence and failure to realise how little experience and understanding others have of weapons.We go through drills, mechanisms etc, but do we explain how accidents such as NDS happen and the possible outcomes.

    The guy in question went on to be a sergeant in the DF and never forgot the incident, lesson learned!

    Goldies post on the ND in the NS where a guy was killed reminded me of how NDs occur with people who are not familiar with weapons in fine detail and fail to understand how or why NDs can take place. The case in point was around a pistol and the use of a magazine to unload it,tragic point but one that clearly showed a lack of understanding of how the pistol worked.

    I replicated the cause on the range to show people how an accident could happen in exactly the same circumstances, being able to recall and incident and show how to prevent it brought an awareness to the situation.

    Its probably something that should be paid more attention to during training rather than just beasting those who carry it out, regardless of rank.
    Just visiting

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  18. #37
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    people get careless around weapons, especially installed weapons, such as car or aircraft guns in mounts, a lot of which are electrically fired. Might be no harm for a DF campaign about weapon care, handling and attention especially given the proliferation of remote/electrically fired weapons in the DF.

    regards
    GttC

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  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    people get careless around weapons, especially installed weapons, such as car or aircraft guns in mounts, a lot of which are electrically fired. Might be no harm for a DF campaign about weapon care, handling and attention especially given the proliferation of remote/electrically fired weapons in the DF.

    regards
    GttC
    I hope it has the care of hearing video music.
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  21. #39
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    Seen an ND that almost knocked someone out.


    The guy standing along side the person who had the ND, turned and flattened him.
    No more NDs


  22. #40
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    The near miss with the cadets could well be considered a ND scenario depending on the actual circumstances.

  23. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    The near miss with the cadets could well be considered a ND scenario depending on the actual circumstances.

    MOD: The other thread on that subject has been closed while a live investigation takes place.No further posts on this matter people.Only warning.
    The modern Irish soldier is better educated,trained and equipped then any any other generation that has gone before.


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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