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  1. #1
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Air Corps Cadet Commissioning


    c25 by Irish Defence Forces, on Flickr

    "The Cadet Jevens Memorial Trophy" - Awarded to the student who achieved the highest standard in the ground school syllabus is awarded by the Family of David Jevins.


    c24 by Irish Defence Forces, on Flickr
    Cadet Paul McDermott receives "The Commandant D.K Johnston Cup " for the student who achieved the highest standard in flying from DCOS Ops Major General Ralph James.


    Only 3 cadets commissioned.

    Air Corps Commissioning by Irish Defence Forces, on Flickr
    (Left to Right) Cadet David Fallon, Cadet Paul McDermot, Cadet Neil Dunne swearing Oath of allegiance in which they will swear to be "faithful to Ireland and loyal to the Constitution"


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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  3. #2
    Sergeant Major
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    There was only three in their class.

  4. #3
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Short clip. Same old muzak.
    Last edited by Goldie fish; 16th December 2012 at 11:57.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  5. #4
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    The band must be playing Silent Night .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  6. #5
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Oops. Dunno how that happened. meant to post the other clip on their playlist, of the commissioning. Will try again.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  7. #6
    C/S
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    Three is pointless, really.Scarcely attritional replacements to cover retirements. Still, best of luck to them.

    regards
    GttC

  8. #7
    Commandant Jetjock's Avatar
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    7xPC-9 , 3 Cadets. Mind boggling.

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  10. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Do we know how many started?

  11. #9
    Sergeant Major
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Do we know how many started?
    As i said earlier in the thread, three. Three started and finished. The decision on numbers came down to the minister. Don't forget they were recruited during the middle of a recruitment embargo and that for the previous few years there hadn't been an aircorps class.

  12. #10
    Major General
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    7xPC-9 , 3 Cadets. Mind boggling.

    In this age and era of VFM/closures/standowns etc the cost of maintaining the training apparatus for the AC must be horrendus for a class of 3.Makes the ponies look worthwhile.

  13. #11
    Sergeant Major
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    Yes, but just because they had a class of three cadets doesn't mean that future classes will all be of the same size, though with the reoorg of the DF the days of 50 strong classes that were a feature of the early and mid noughties (including air corps) in the military college are long gone.

  14. #12
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    Raytheon offered to cover the ACs entire FH per year requirement with 4 Texan II aircraft. Considering the fleet averages about 1600hrs PA 7/8 certainly seemed a massive overkill (at €8m a pop plus ongoing mx). Congrats to the 3 cadets / officers, I have no doubt they will enjoy their time in the Corps.

  15. #13
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northie View Post
    Yes, but just because they had a class of three cadets doesn't mean that future classes will all be of the same size, though with the reoorg of the DF the days of 50 strong classes that were a feature of the early and mid noughties (including air corps) in the military college are long gone.
    Especially considering there are too many lieutenants in the DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    Raytheon offered to cover the ACs entire FH per year requirement with 4 Texan II aircraft. Considering the fleet averages about 1600hrs PA 7/8 certainly seemed a massive overkill (at €8m a pop plus ongoing mx). Congrats to the 3 cadets / officers, I have no doubt they will enjoy their time in the Corps.
    Don't forget they are multi-role (eg flying CAP).

    Normally classes are around 5 or so.

    Remember being Ireland you may need all the cadets in the air at the same time due to good weather

  16. #14
    Brigadier General
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    In the past even thought the Air Corps had 12 Marchettis they had to lease 3 more know as the "White Marchettis" to fill there requirements.

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  18. #15
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    In the past even thought the Air Corps had 12 Marchettis they had to lease 3 more know as the "White Marchettis" to fill there requirements.
    The 'requirement' for additional aircraft had nothing to do with the flying utilisation which was in fact very low. It was more to do with ancient work practices that prevailed at the time. These included Mon-Fri 0900-1630 mx (with about 2hrs of breaks), inflexibility of who could sign off what and inability to handover work from one supervisor to another even if he was on holiday!!!. This left BFTS with low numbers of aircraft to use and even left aircraft on IRANs for 18 months at a time.

    The PC9s are the same. No matter what they are doing, they are only doing 1600hrs a year as a fleet. With a fleet of 4 this would leave only 400hrs per aircraft per year plus 4 of these modern technology machines maintained to proper work regimes should be producing 3 aircraft per day minimum. 3 aircraft flying 3-4 sorties per day will give 45-60 flights per week as a minimum, more then enough for any course.

    As for the weather argument, come on, the Don has never had it so good. Turbine trainers with high rates of climb and high operational ceilings, exceptional IFR capability and an ILS. Weather should be much less restrictive then it ever was. Besides even if 8 aircraft were sitting on the ramp with 8 students how many instructors could the school field at any given time? 3,4?

    8 machines was an unnecessary purchase for the utilisation the AC required but hey, they have them now and good luck to them. I just wouldn't like to have to defend a 200hrs per year per aircraft utilisation if a VFM review was carried out.

  19. #16
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    Rhodes, the Don never had 12 Marchettis at any one time. Never. Take it from me, because I worked on them all. There were never more than seven, maximum, available at any time, apart from the early days. Commonly, four or five were on hand at any time. Tadpole, given that the fleet of PC-9s is now seven, and availability is probably in the order of five a day, the original purchase of 8 was a good idea, given that there will probably be no replacement for the crashed one. Aircraft daily availability and actual daily utility of the PC-9s is considerably better than the Marchettis and Fougas and they do fly above the weather for training flights. In fact, in Ireland, flyable days, even for basic VFR, is in the order of 300 days per year. Ask any of the schools in Weston. I certainly agree about the work practises, but a huge amount of the old "Union rules, bud" stuff is gone. It's hugely better than the Marchetti/Fouga days, in all the hangars. As for the old IRANs, the Don was certainly indefensible on that regard which is why Irish Helis were contracted in to do the IRANs on the Marchettis in the Don. I worked in Engineering Wing with Shay Millea and "Skull" Redmond, two ex-ers, and the IRAN overhaul time dropped dramatically because the two lads did a contracted twelve hours a day (and often worked on weekends and into the late hours as needed.There were times when myself and 1 avionics guy were the only Donners working with them) and ordered all the parts thru Irish Helis, instead of thru the creaky Don/DF supply system. In fact, the two lads were told to take no shit from the Stores system and go via Irish Helis if they needed to. The net effect was to drastically shorten overhaul times, give a boot up the arse to the Donners and the union rules attitude and to shake up the Stores system. It was a hell of a learning curve and I thoroughly enjoyed my time working with two good lads who were pros and who gave a shit.

    regards
    GttC

  20. #17
    Major General
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    Yet another thread on the Air Corps is heading into the usual "AC is a waste of space etc."

  21. #18
    CQMS
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Yet another thread on the Air Corps is heading into the usual "AC is a waste of space etc."
    Why do you think that happens?

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  23. #19
    Brigadier General
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    This thread is wandering a long way off topic, there is another thread to discuss the apparent short comings of the Air Corps, which as I have pointed out before is IMHO long overdue some kind of independent audit, I am not going to close this thread yet, but if it goes into another Air Corps bashing session then it will be closed.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  24. #20
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    okay then ,back to basics, three isn't enough for natural attrition and the equivalent lack of engineering apprentices will also bite home. A five year gap for aptces is not good enough for continuity. I understand the embargo but tidying up after the effects of an embargo takes time, so some kind of recruitment has to happen.

    regards
    GttC

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  26. #21
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    And you also run into the problem that in general it is the mid ranking sections (OR and Officers), ie the day to day operators, instructors etc that are leaving and taking their experience with them. Eventually, without continuous recruitment you could end up with a lob sided experience gap and a 'who trains the trainers' scenario.

  27. #22
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    well, it happened us in the former State airline. For engineers, a ten year gap in the recruitment of aptces and the age profile is biased towards older guys, which is very hard to undo. We can tolerate an older age profile in civvie street but that's not realistic in the military. For pilots, erratic recruitment of replacement cadets and qualified pilots means an age bias and expensive replacements. It's not a good policy for any organisation.

    regards
    GttC

  28. #23
    bosun
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    What happens now with the new lads do they fly everything or are they assigned to fixed wing only..

  29. #24
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    As far as I know they build hours and some may then go to rotary wing.

    According to the Minister's speech at the commissioning the AC will shortly recruit 20 apprentices.

  30. #25
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    New pilots go onto the Cessna to build experience, then get streamed to multi-engine or rotary, as a gap arises.

    regards
    GttC

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