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Thread: Timoney

  1. #51
    Major General
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    If I remember correctly, Timoney ended up getting Bombardier (Then building Busses), in shannon to do much of their mass production. Then Bombardier pulled out of Ireland.
    Ireland with notable exceptions (Liebherr in Killarney) just don't grasp the importance of high quality engineering, be it vehicles or plant. It is a skilled trade but nobody is being trained here for it any more.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    If we wanted an indigenous defence industry it has to export and/or minimum quadruple the size of the DF.

    If it armoured vehicles you need to be building minimum 10s of vehicles every year.

    If it rounds, it’s probably in minimum the tens of millions.

    It has to at least equal the quality and cost of the foreign competition.
    For quantity of vehicles, yup. Which is precisely why arms companies often need government investment until they have a reputation and market. If you’re not willing to lose money for five to ten years you haven’t the vision to be in the game in the first place. Anyway, too late, ship sailed.

    For quality, I don’t fully agree. The world’s militaries are full of equipment made by the lowest bidder, politically acceptable bidder, domestic bidder etc. with quality an afterthought so long as it doesn’t fall apart immediately. However if by quality you mean “good enough” and you can match that with “cheap enough” you might have a chance in markets that can’t afford shiny and don’t want Soviet.

    For ammunition - no civilian market in Ireland is the killer, I did say it made most sense when we had no friends and only got Britain’s leftovers.
    But I could set up a factory in my garage producing 40,000 rounds per day for a capital outlay of less than 20,000 euro and employing 5 people. That’s with 5 presses meant for home use. If it’s 9mm I would have to sell them at 30 cents each to make a profit, more for rifle ammo. But that’s what some guys have done here. There are about 15 large and small ammunition producers I know of in SA. Some of them export too. You don’t need tens of millions of rounds to make it worthwhile.
    But you do need more than one customer. Hence the civilian market.
    I only shoot a paltry 3000 or so rounds per year and most are like me. But any serious team or competition shooter I know shoots 3000 - 5000 rounds per month. I can find 30 of those any given weekend.
    Last edited by expat01; 9th January 2018 at 22:21.

  4. #53
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    When I say quality I mean a quality design and product which is able to meet or exceed our needs in line with alternatives (eg STANAG levels, ISO standards). They would need to be comparable to say MOWAG or FN.

    No you need a market full stop. Not sure what issues changing tooling for different calibres would cause or for example making ball, AP, tracer etc.

    To give you an idea of the market we are looking at:
    - generally the DF contracts last about 3 years at a time
    - the DF hasn’t issued a tender for any small arms (they have issued 2 for 5.56mm blank) in the last 10 years

  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    When I say quality I mean a quality design and product which is able to meet or exceed our needs in line with alternatives (eg STANAG levels, ISO standards). They would need to be comparable to say MOWAG or FN.

    No you need a market full stop. Not sure what issues changing tooling for different calibres would cause or for example making ball, AP, tracer etc.

    To give you an idea of the market we are looking at:
    - generally the DF contracts last about 3 years at a time
    - the DF hasn’t issued a tender for any small arms (they have issued 2 for 5.56mm blank) in the last 10 years
    Gotcha.

    Don't know for commercial machines, but on the press I use (manual) the tool head contains all the dies for the calibre I'm loading and I can just swap out the entire tool head to change from, e.g. 9mm to 5.56 in a couple of minutes. The assembly of the round is really independent of the bullet - ball, tracer, AP. You just size and prime the case, load the required measure of whatever propellant your using for the weight and type of bullet you want, stick the bullet on top and crimp. The hard work is figuring out the load in the first place.
    It's not that we should make it now, it's just amazing that we never did make something so easy to manufacture when it made sense and we had a market. If we weren't going to do that, what odds for Timoney?
    Last edited by expat01; 10th January 2018 at 13:26.

  6. #55
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Problem with Timoney being they were really a one trick pony, They built piecemeal singular unique firetenders and one small batch of APCs.

    Multiple products with solid numbers in the hundreds per anum need to stay afloat at a certain level, but you can always piddle around in the shallow end of the pool in R&D and a few prototypes and still make a nice few quid without too much risk and investment
    Just visiting

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  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    The army selected the Landsverk tank in the 1930s explicitly with a view to having it built in Ireland. The government's argument was that no Irish manufacturer was interested in building it. Probably because they were quietly told there might be a requirement for 7 or 8 tops.
    Not even making bullets is mad. The potential civilian market alone could have justified a small facility, I know a shooting club of 20 guys that gets through 100k rounds of 9mm a year by themselves.
    There is something odd about this state's attitude to things weapony.
    There was a plan in the 1930s to build a munitions factory in clare in conjunction with ici. Duggans history of Irish army had details

    I believe the plan was to build the landsverk in Dundalk or drogheda in the railway engineering works.

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