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Thread: Timoney

  1. #26
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    Exactly. Look at the likes of the M113 that the Danes have just decided to replace with more 300 MOWAG Piranhas at the end of last year (they've brought the Piranha V by the way) or the FV432's that are still clinging on to service in the uk as "Bulldog".

    I'd love to serve in a DF that has a new fleet of Terrex or CM32 a likes built in Ireland (wallace, daly etc would have breakdown) but that won't be happening anytime soon if additional life can be found in the MOWAG fleet.

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  3. #27
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    If we do not want to go for a full APC but something a little lighter there is always the other great selling Timoney design the Thales Bushmaster IMV of Australia. Good for peacekeeing in auster hot places such as Chad or Mali.

    https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...nce/bushmaster

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  5. #28
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    If we do not want to go for a full APC but something a little lighter there is always the other great selling Timoney design the Thales Bushmaster IMV of Australia. Good for peacekeeing in auster hot places such as Chad or Mali.

    https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...nce/bushmaster
    It is a full APC

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  7. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    If we do not want to go for a full APC but something a little lighter there is always the other great selling Timoney design the Thales Bushmaster IMV of Australia. Good for peacekeeing in auster hot places such as Chad or Mali.

    https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...nce/bushmaster
    The bushmaster weighs more than a mowag...it's a quasi MRAP....
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  9. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    The bushmaster weighs more than a mowag...it's a quasi MRAP....
    Bushmaster 12400 kg Piranha 3 18000kg

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  11. #31
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  13. #32
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    Given that was '82 wonder what their workshops look like now - great shame they don't produce vehicles for Defence Forces

  14. #33
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    What were their APC's like in service? Are they still used for anything?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
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  15. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    What were their APC's like in service? Are they still used for anything?
    I only heard good things (although being 4x4 I think they had limited mobility off-road (open to correction)).

    There used to be at least 1 in the National Transport Museum, 1 I think is still serviceable in the Cav Sch (as a museum type piece).

    At least some were used for target practice in the Glen.

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  17. #35
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Timoney Drive Systems At Heart of Yugoimports Lazar 8 X 8

    http://armscom.net/news/timoney_driv...ts_lazar_8_x_8
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  18. #36
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I only heard good things (although being 4x4 I think they had limited mobility off-road (open to correction)).
    You only ever spoke to people who never used them then!

    In fairness there was a mixed response as each of the marks that entered service had their problems from being under powered to being plagued with mechanical problems due to being short run vehicles with attempts to cross engines and gear boxes in the different marks, by the end of service in the 1990s my last run in with one was in 1996, they were on their last legs.

    Over engineered and under developed , had the production runs been longer the issues would have probably been ironed out. They were an attempt to move into the 1980s as opposed to the M3s which were a 1960s car.

    there were comfortable to drive I believe, good crew conditions and the license built versions overseas with Belgium the BDX was a good car. The later progressions like the Valkyrie again suffered lack of investment and gain if the army had gone into the level of partner ship we did with Panhard or even Mowag there could have been a different result.


    Two in the Curragh, a Mk 5 and a Mk 6, the prototype hull was in Coolmoney for years until some one cut it up after it had been used as a hard target, sad loss. Transport Museum in Howth has one on display and I think one in reserve.

    Timoney actually built an armoured car for Tanzania that went into service and was comparable with the AML 90.

    The Timoney with the AML turret featured was a trial and worked quite well but the turret took up so much space internally the vehicle was no longer an APC....and performance was comparable with the AML 90 so no need for change.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 5th January 2018 at 12:59.
    Time for another break I think......

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  20. #37
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    One also in National Museum Collins Barracks Dublin.

    I think their Fire tender (Aer Corps)had on going problems with steering

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  22. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Given that was '82 wonder what their workshops look like now - great shame they don't produce vehicles for Defence Forces

    https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/l...behind-terrex/

    They built the Terrex 3 prototypes in Ireland.

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  24. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Given that was '82 wonder what their workshops look like now - great shame they don't produce vehicles for Defence Forces
    They have to go through the tender process like everyone else. Their offering did not make the final grade when the Mowag was in the running against the Pandur. It was still at prototype stage, while the P3 and pandur were in full production and in use with other armies.
    I'm sure if the competition was run in the morning things would be different. However the fact is Timoney is not capable of the large scale production General Dynamics European Land combat systems can achieve in either their Mowag, Pandur or Santa Barbára manufacturing facilities.

    P.S. @Northie, Paywall at that site.
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  26. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by northie View Post
    https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/l...behind-terrex/

    They built the Terrex 3 prototypes in Ireland.
    Also sent over I belive a Bushmaster in mild steel to the Australians
    Last edited by sofa; 8th January 2018 at 00:08.

  27. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Also sent over I belive a Bushmaster in mild steel to the Australians
    Is pretty common for prototypes that do not have to be put through ballistic tests, and the Aussies and others seem to have liked the Bushmaster as they have built over 1000 and there is even a new version being built in Indonesia: Sanca MRAP.

    Also they are the go-to company for 8x8 design, CM32, Terrex, Lazar................, do the design and then rake in the royalties. Also they have a major co-operation with Rheinmetall makers of the HX/SX trucks, Boxer, Lynx.........

    It still would be great if we did have some kit made by them and I would hope that through PESCO they could get on the next generation of vehicles.

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  29. #42
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    While the rest of the world unashamedly buys or manufactures locally, every Irish government has of yet failed to see the value in supporting local industry with local manufacturing or basic industrial offsets.

    However you would suspect that had the Terrex been an in existence when a Mowag and a Pandur were facing off in the Curragh, there may have been a different outcome. The Bushmaster, fine niche vehicle that it is just didn't meet the specs. It was probably the first Irish military acquisition process where the tender specs were exceeded. ( 8x8 vs the tender specified 6x6)
    Last edited by Jetjock; 9th January 2018 at 00:02.

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  31. #43
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    Given the state of Irish industry in the 1970s and ‘80s (trade unions, I’m looking at you) it was, I say reluctantly, a smart play to buy foreign. It might have been possible if government had declared, say, VCD and Timoney to be strategic industries, taken a large share and curbed union rights. In fact, between the 1930s and 1990s it would have made security sense for the state to invest and maintain a limited domestic arms industry - an ammunition factory, capacity to license build small arms - as well as vehicles and vessels. However it would only have been practical if the domestic market for these could provide a cradle for foreign sales and partnership growth. Government support through partnership, control and purchases would have been essential in every case.
    The navy never got enough ships, the army never got enough vehicles and the ban on civilian firearm ownership meant you’d be making rounds to sell to yourself. The imagination, the money and the will to develop an arms industry never existed.

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  33. #44
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    The other side of it is, that yes they design vehicles, but I somehow feel that to ramp up a production plant in ireland for producing mil spec mine protected vehicles (i.e. heavy industry) would just end in disaster in this country. We just dont seem capable of managing heavy industry on any scale.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  35. #45
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    expat01 has it right; the environment was impossible at the time; look at all the large and small firms that have had to close in Ireland because manufacturing here was too expensive per unit/unions were strike-happy/workforce unruly. Some of the bigger firms only survive because of Govt subsidy or because the workforce has learned that agitation will drive the company abroad. Look at Combilift, makers of the Moffett Mounty forklift in Monaghan. It exists now because it has been sold to people with more money to invest but at least it is still in Ireland, when it could easily be across the border and be lauded as a "British" product. If you wanted Timoney to survive and operate here as a military vehicle builder, you'd have to have a compliant workforce, a union that won't agitate for the kind of useless shite that broke firms in the 70s and some kind of a home market (DF, fire services, heavy vehicles for special use).

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  37. #46
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    you'd need a home market that had a more or less continuous requirement for vehicles with a steady - every 10 years or so - new model requirement. you'd also need a government and body politic that wasn't overy fussy about who the manufacturer could sell to and provide ongoing support to.

    neither of these two conditions are going to be met by any Irish political class that has existed in the last 100 years or is likely to exist in the next 100 years.

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  39. #47
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Really a chicken and egg situation as they built enough cars at home to attract an overseas order that built 100 BDX vehicles for Belguim.

    Timoney was more of a research facility than mass production and stayed in the development of low production vehicles namely Airport Fire tenders rather than taking on the likes of Mowag or BAE in the construction of what was a very limited capacity APC. The range of prototypes after the initial models were never really picked up on by major manufactures although the Valkyrie was developed along with Vickers in the UK never went into production.

    They never had the capacity for large scale production and 99% of vehicles imported into this country at the time were in kit form. Without having ready overseas market I'm not sure did Timoney want to go out on a limb, especially in Ireland.

    Bushmaster, 1000 vehicle success story is not a pure Timoney product and is a result of a partnership for a very specific vehicle.

    I think they only still exist in their current format because of the mistakes they didn't make as alluded to above.
    Time for another break I think......

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  41. #48
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    The army selected the Landsverk tank in the 1930s explicitly with a view to having it built in Ireland. The government's argument was that no Irish manufacturer was interested in building it. Probably because they were quietly told there might be a requirement for 7 or 8 tops.
    Not even making bullets is mad. The potential civilian market alone could have justified a small facility, I know a shooting club of 20 guys that gets through 100k rounds of 9mm a year by themselves.
    There is something odd about this state's attitude to things weapony.

  42. #49
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    If we wanted an indigenous defence industry it has to export and/or minimum quadruple the size of the DF.

    If it armoured vehicles you need to be building minimum 10s of vehicles every year.

    If it rounds, it’s probably in minimum the tens of millions.

    It has to at least equal the quality and cost of the foreign competition.

  43. #50
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    Quite how much range time does everybody want to put in?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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