Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Off base heli ops?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    There has always been a view that the Air Corps has been reluctant to dispense with its 9-5 working day, in order to be home by tea time/Coronation Street. It is a viewpoint that has been well earned for the most part, the long bare helicopter deck on LE Eithne is testament enough to that. The exception to that of course would be SAR, with the notable work of SAR deployments to Shannon, Finner and Waterford. We'll omit Sligo from that list.

    There is probably an argument that the centralisation of all operations to Baldonnel would not have helped the stay home mentality. At the very least, Gormanstown provided some sort of multi base culture. It's Baldonnel or nothing these days, or so it seems. The cost of maintaining Gormanstown, a facility with a small tarmac runway and minimal navaids to upkeep(a single Non Directional Beacon that is still active anyway, if somewhat redundant) would have been tiny. It is a site that is still secured to this day by the Army, so one would have to wonder what savings it's closure actually provided.

    So the perception now exists that the Air Corps is unwilling to operate out of its comfort zone and out of office hours. As an civvy pilot who has many times heard Air Corps aircraft on Dublin Air Traffic Control frequencies, I would have to say that there does seem to be at least a basic level of out of hours Army support activity that many board members are unaware of. Additional to the usual Air Ambulance movements, I have heard Air Corps Alpha Whiskey callsigns(AW139) operating to and from places like the Wicklow mountains to the Curragh in the late hours. So there is at least some movement in the right direction on the Army support front. On that basis and despite past track records, I wouldn't be rushing to say that the "will" does not exist. At least not these days.

    The most obvious reason for the non full committal to Army support would have to be the number of available assets. There are currently 7 helicopters. One is available for 24 Air Ambulance, one is forward deployed daily for daylight only EAS. Factor in scheduled and un-scheduled maintenance and where does that leave the fleet in terms of its ability to serve its primary customer?

    Frankly, while the Air Corps is being pulled in so many directions by tasks that could and should be civilianised(money permitting), it will never achieve any level of the required support capability to make the Army brass sit up and say : "Actually, this is quite a useful capability".

    Whenever an aviation sticky plaster solution is required by successive governments, the Air Corps is always called upon to step into the fray and ease some public furore or other. It's all about the political optics rather than the best interests of the Air Corps or indeed the public. Until the fleet is left entirely to its primary purpose by its political masters, the Air Corps will not have the chance to prove themselves as a military entity.

    In an era where the government is examining the usefulness and value for money of everything down to the door mats in public buildings, who can blame the Air Corps brass for stepping up to the plate when called upon. Be versatile or die quickly and quietly these days. In the long term the civilianisation of all these militarily superfluous tasks is a must in order for the AC to realise their military potential.

    (This is NOT to say that the AC should be subjected to civilian rules and oversight at any stage. They should not. Ever. There should however be ongoing departmental level auditing employing an experienced, retired mid to high ranking officer of a foreign air arm overseeing all operational and safety matters, focusing on implementing international military best standards and with some power of enforcement)

    So if and when the AC is left to its own devices to operate with a purely military mission statement the above mentioned Gormanstown would not be a bad place to start an off base short term "field deployment", in order to develope procedures and practices before deploying lock stock to somewhere like, well an actual field.

    The obvious point is that if there is ever an aspiration to forward deploy overseas, the ability to seamlessly forward deploy at home must not cost the AC a second thought.

    Comment


    • #17
      The blue uniforms came in at least 10 years prior to DPM. It was the start of the AC becoming semi-independent (eg getting rid of the AC Sigs and Maint Engr Coys.

      The loss of SAR actually saw a huge increase in the amount of aircraft supporting army exercises.

      If you stop non-operational flying how are aircrew going to stay current on the aircraft, how are army troops going to practice helo ops on MREs for example.

      Comment


      • #18
        The loss of SAR actually saw a huge increase in the amount of aircraft supporting army exercises.

        If you stop non-operational flying how are aircrew going to stay current on the aircraft, how are army troops going to practice helo ops on MREs for example.[/QUOTE]

        How huge an increase are we talking DeV??

        How often do troops practice helo ops? A few a/c head down to the Glen for an afternoon or the Curragh, bring someone from An Cosantoir to immortalise the occasion, put it to the same old music and milk it for another six months. I've no problem with PR, it's a great tool when used wisely but for people in the loop that know these types of exercises don't happen that often it's hard to think of it as more than a PR exercise.
        Last edited by Meatbomb; 22 January 2013, 00:20.

        Comment


        • #19
          A good start might be excretion of non core ops such as MATS.

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi Dev
            All helicopters, by their very nature, are designed to operate away from hard runways and have done so since the first military use began. With the Harrier, they operated from hard surfaces for a long time until they had figured out the actual logistics of running a fast jet off rough surfaces. The Don is very good at deploying to hard sites like Finner and Monaghan and various airports but that's with extensive support and a main base an hour or so away. Genuine, off-base, off-grid operations have never been conducted by the AC and in essence, Army co-op is pointless unless you are prepared to go hard-core and get stuck in, living in tents, servicing engines in the field, rearming in the field and so on. Going to the Curragh or the Glen and staying for one overnight does not count as realistic practise. If the AC wants to gain genuine respect and credibility for off-base ops, it has to get moving and get stuck in.

            regards
            GttC

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Meatbomb View Post
              The loss of SAR actually saw a huge increase in the amount of aircraft supporting army exercises.

              If you stop non-operational flying how are aircrew going to stay current on the aircraft, how are army troops going to practice helo ops on MREs for example.

              How huge an increase are we talking DeV??

              How often do troops practice helo ops? A few a/c head down to the Glen for an afternoon or the Curragh, bring someone from An Cosantoir to immortalise the occasion, put it to the same old music and milk it for another six months. I've no problem with PR, it's a great tool when used wisely but for people in the loop that know these types of exercises don't happen that often it's hard to think of it as more than a PR exercise.[/QUOTE]

              The difference between 2/3 Alouettes on ex and 4/5 plus 2 dauphins. There is AC involvement in most major ex's, not just MREs.
              Gttc, I don't disagree!

              Comment


              • #22
                Guys IMHO this is a valuable and interesting discussion..

                It appears that the AC has made no real progress in Military Heli ops despite the new paint jobs, the Fans who hear a AW on the radio and get a tear in there eye really need to try and assess the current state of Ops in the AC. The odd spin down to the Glen does not cut it.
                Plenty of guys on the forum are more realistic.

                I think some kind of progressive leadership and some near term achievable goals would be a good step.

                So here's my two cents: As a Goal for this year, how about building up to deploying two AW-139's for 48 hrs in the field with an Army Unit on exercise. And not some half hearted effort a full deployment with tech, ATC, Logs, fuel etc deployed with the aircraft. I think given the resources in Bal that this achievable.

                I think that would be a good achievement, and the AC can use the lessons learned, doctrine and SOP's that would be developed to build towards some type of longer term goal.

                Comment


                • #23
                  C252, a five-minute phone call to the US Army or the BA's AAC will give you all the doctrine/SOPs/lessons learned etc. they've only beeen doing it since the start of helicopter aviation. Given that a huge number of DF soldiers of all ranks have already seen such off-base ops in progress, some of the knowledge is already in the corporate brain. Try a week in the field as a baseline. It's not that hard to operate a helicopter in the field as long as it gets clean fuel and oil, is kept reasonably clean where it matters and people don't bang it off hard objects. The DF already knows how to keep personnel in the field, so the only real learning curve is the actual helicopter itself.

                  regards
                  GttC

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    GttC, why ain't it happening so, if the knowledge is already there?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      GTTC,

                      I totally agree, and for sure the Army know how to keep personnel in the field, but for the AC its quite a step. Remember the AC has never done anything like this so some kind of crawl-walk-Run might be advisable.

                      The drive has to come from within...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I cant understand the attitude that the AC should get rid of the Garda and Air Ambulance roles as besides Maritime Patrol seems to be the only roles of real value and that give some real world experience and the only real valid reasons for having the AC.

                        In actual fact it probaly would be more cost effective to civilianise the practice ops with the Army, chances are that the pilots flying with the civilian operator have more military helicopter operations experience

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Charlie252

                          The drive has to come from within...
                          To a point I agree but in the end the organisation must go in the direction it's directed. That direction does indeed come from AC management, but also from Defence Forces management, if they directed it, the AC would need to do it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Throw them on an ex with a PDF / RDF unit down the glen for a week.

                            Park up two or three choppers, tents, fuel, maintenance, etc and armament.

                            Stick the GPMGs in the doors, fire blanks whatever but get used to doing it in the field.
                            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Meatbomb View Post
                              To a point I agree but in the end the organisation must go in the direction it's directed. That direction does indeed come from AC management, but also from Defence Forces management, if they directed it, the AC would need to do it.
                              What I have seen, with regards to the NS in recent years is the opposite. If the Air Corps have nothing to offer, the DF management will not ask any more of them. It is up to the AC management to lobby the DF management and say "We can do this". It must be easier now than ever with an Air Corps man in the DCOS job.


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                                What I have seen, with regards to the NS in recent years is the opposite. If the Air Corps have nothing to offer, the DF management will not ask any more of them. It is up to the AC management to lobby the DF management and say "We can do this". It must be easier now than ever with an Air Corps man in the DCOS job.
                                Well what needs to change then for AC management to up their game?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X