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Thread: Maritime Patrol

  1. #26
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    Given that the CASAs cannot actually board any FVs,other than verifications for the VMS system what else are the desired/actual outputs of the MPs. Are these being rendered obsolete by the recent change in policy of the SFPA to attend and check landings of catch.

  2. #27
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    If anything, the MPA have become more useful with the arrival of VMS. At a glance they can see those who have their transponder switched off while fishing, and can close in to photograph and identify the offender, allowing the details to be passed on to the NS for further investigation.

    Similarly, when monitoring the movements of suspected smugglers, the MPA can provide an almost real time eyes on for those commanding a potential detection operation.

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  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    I would hate to think the CASA's are being used for twin-engine training, that would be a total misuse of very expensive role specific aircraft!!

    I don't think any of the other missions, mentioned as affecting availability, should actually reduce the number of patrols.
    Mea culpa - I don't know if they're being used for twin engined training, just an assumption on my part - and quite possibly wrong. Anyone know for sure?

    Apart from the other roles, the other significant variable is the a/c availability, again no direct knowledge, but they've got a quite advanced sensor suite in a nearly 20 year old airframe and I think there were a couple of Pan-Pan engine outs over the last few years.

    Point I'm making is - if the patrol figure is low, then there are probably good reasons - and crewing does not appear to be one of them, the old 9-5 Monday to Friday AC, does not tally with what I'm seeing.

  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    So only positive comments are allowed?

    I asked a simple question and received a response, do you think the number of patrols seams reasonable for two aircraft??

    I would hate to think the CASA's are being used for twin-engine training, that would be a total misuse of very expensive role specific aircraft!!

    I don't think any of the other missions, mentioned as affecting availability, should actually reduce the number of patrols.

    Have you anything to contribute??
    Well I do actually - and it's all quite positive as reflected in the posts above detailing the CASA's true multi-role capability in terms of Air Amb, TopCover as well as ongoing maritime patrolling.

    Shock horror if it's being used for twin-eng training - now why would that be a "total misuse" of an aircraft. Most militaries (and airlines) do exactly the same.

    Maybe the fishermen are taking August off too!
    Last edited by Pure Hover; 7th August 2013 at 22:43.

  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    If anything, the MPA have become more useful with the arrival of VMS. At a glance they can see those who have their transponder switched off while fishing, and can close in to photograph and identify the offender, allowing the details to be passed on to the NS for further investigation.

    Similarly, when monitoring the movements of suspected smugglers, the MPA can provide an almost real time eyes on for those commanding a potential detection operation.
    Not to mention Naval vessels, which don't usually broadcast their whereabouts via transponder - so the Casa's can fill in those gaps and help the NS build up a picture.

    They're a great asset for naval intelligence.

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  8. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    I would hate to think the CASA's are being used for twin-engine training, that would be a total misuse of very expensive role specific aircraft!!
    As would the use of the Learjet or GIV, maybe the Government should allocate resources to provide a suitable aircraft ?

    Either way type training & ratings still need to be conducted on those aircraft.

    I don't think any of the other missions, mentioned as affecting availability, should actually reduce the number of patrols.
    Say a FP patrol was scheduled and a drug interdiction mission was done instead that reduces it.

    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Given that the CASAs cannot actually board any FVs,other than verifications for the VMS system what else are the desired/actual outputs of the MPs. Are these being rendered obsolete by the recent change in policy of the SFPA to attend and check landings of catch.
    Assuming the catch is landed in Ireland?!

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  10. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Any idea what the # of Patrols/flying hours were for 2012??
    Most recent stats for FPs are for 2010 @ 228 patrols @ total of 1267 hours.

  11. #33
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    With regard to twin training on type, obviously the potential pilots have to fly the things after doing the simulator course, so that's a valid use of them as a multi-engine trainer. The problem is, all the other twins are either executive aircraft or a police aircraft and are not suited for general multi training. Previously the King Airs did it, which is what they were also good for.So a genuine need exists for an ME trainer/recurrency trainer/general duties aircraft such as a King Air., so right now, the situation forces their hand to use the Casas for ME training.

    regards
    GttC

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  13. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure Hover View Post
    Well I do actually - and it's all quite positive as reflected in the posts above detailing the CASA's true multi-role capability in terms of Air Amb, TopCover as well as ongoing maritime patrolling.

    Shock horror if it's being used for twin-eng training - now why would that be a "total misuse" of an aircraft. Most militaries (and airlines) do exactly the same.

    Maybe the fishermen are taking August off too!
    I am aware of the aircrafts multi-role abilities, however it shouldn't take away from the aircrafts primary role. The only training on the CASA should be for pilots new too the type and for command upgrade courses, to use the aircraft for general multi/ir training would be a misuse and really not a viable argument as each pilot would first have to have conducted a type rating course in Seville..
    I don't believe they are used for that type of training though.

    As for the fishermen taking "august off" nuff said..

    In an Airline training is done with pax on board, the aircraft are only ever used for base training of new pilots(pilots conducting there first JAR 25 type rating), thereafter for each new type the base training is conducted in a Level D sim, as you can imagine it is an expensive and rare event.


    And yes I believe that the advent of the VMS has made the CASA more relevant, for obvious reasons.

    Still seams that the number of patrols is a little on the low side.
    Last edited by Charlie252; 8th August 2013 at 06:46.

  14. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    If anything, the MPA have become more useful with the arrival of VMS. At a glance they can see those who have their transponder switched off while fishing, and can close in to photograph and identify the offender, allowing the details to be passed on to the NS for further investigation.

    Similarly, when monitoring the movements of suspected smugglers, the MPA can provide an almost real time eyes on for those commanding a potential detection operation.
    Certainly until real time satt surveillance becomes viable VMS verification ops are very important.Equally could not the role be widened to H&S matters such as wearing of lifejackets on deck by fishermen etc by use of photo evidence .The subjects would not even be aware of the presence of the AC.
    Whilst the MPAs have obvious JTF capabilities these appear not to be utilised going by annual reports and the DwW op.
    Interestingly the output per indv patrol has decreased from c.6.25 hours per patrol to about 5.36 hours per patrol.

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Equally could not the role be widened to H&S matters such as wearing of lifejackets on deck by fishermen etc by use of photo evidence.
    +1
    Same for the NS

    They must be given the power to enforce maritime safety legislation given that it they (and IRCG) that will risk their lives to try and save them (IRCG not having an offshore capability).

  17. #37
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    JTF could potentially be included in general maritime patrol stats, as it could be multi-tasking due to aircraft's capabilities.

    Also JTF Ops are intelligence led (while of course maritime surveillance (NS & AC) are always on the look out for suspicious activity) if their is no int on an importation, there will be no JTF op for the AC to do.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Certainly until real time satt surveillance becomes viable VMS verification ops are very important.Equally could not the role be widened to H&S matters such as wearing of lifejackets on deck by fishermen etc by use of photo evidence .The subjects would not even be aware of the presence of the AC.
    Whilst the MPAs have obvious JTF capabilities these appear not to be utilised going by annual reports and the DwW op.
    Interestingly the output per indv patrol has decreased from c.6.25 hours per patrol to about 5.36 hours per patrol.
    Agreed, and in reality Real Time Sat surveillance of an area the size of the EEZ is probably decades away.
    The hours per patrol and also sightings per patrol seam to have reduced steadily over the years, that and the lower number of patrols per year seams to point to some other problems.. How is morale in the AC at the moment, the constant cutbacks in salary the loss of Pilot incentive pay etc.. Maybe those factors must be considered in the overall assessment of the output.

    The enforcement aspect has been discussed for many years, including a long process to have the Aircraft Commanders listed as Sea Fisheries protection officers, the issues of court appearance and chains of evidence were problematic, in reality the aircraft is a brilliant surveillance asset and the NS are best placed to carry out the actual enforcement.

    I just think the aircraft should be out there more!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Agreed, and in reality Real Time Sat surveillance of an area the size of the EEZ is probably decades away.
    The hours per patrol and also sightings per patrol seam to have reduced steadily over the years, that and the lower number of patrols per year seams to point to some other problems.. How is morale in the AC at the moment, the constant cutbacks in salary the loss of Pilot incentive pay etc.. Maybe those factors must be considered in the overall assessment of the output.

    The enforcement aspect has been discussed for many years, including a long process to have the Aircraft Commanders listed as Sea Fisheries protection officers, the issues of court appearance and chains of evidence were problematic, in reality the aircraft is a brilliant surveillance asset and the NS are best placed to carry out the actual enforcement.

    I just think the aircraft should be out there more!
    Well the NS is improving its RMP so that could help.
    http://iap.esa.int/project/security/ng-rmp

    At a time when there is cut backs in health, education and social welfare (and to give a relevant DF example, NS patrol days), what makes you think AC flying hrs are exempt?

    2012 - AC Equipment & Expenses - € 16.287 million
    2013 Estimate - AC Equipment & Expenses - € 13.1 million

    That's almost a 20% cut!
    Last edited by DeV; 8th August 2013 at 18:37.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    I just think the aircraft should be out there more!
    From the outside, that appears to be what's happening already.

  21. #41
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    "A quick look at 101 Squadron in the Irish Air Corps.

    This Squadron currently operate two CASA CN 235 Maritime Patrol Aircraft. These aircraft entered service in 1994 and operate seven days a week usually in the off shore maritime patrol arena.

    Working in close conjunction with the Naval Service, the two CASA CN 235 Maritime Patrol Aircraft of 101 Squadron provide an aerial platform for patrolling the Irish Economic Zone, an area of approximately 132,000 square miles or 16% of the total EU sea fisheries. This in itself represents an area almost five times the land area of Ireland and encompasses perhaps one of the most productive fisheries in the world.

    Their roles include: Offshore maritime patrol Inshore maritime patrol Air ambulance Military transport Search and Rescue top cover Parachuting operations"


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  23. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Well the NS is improving its RMP so that could help.
    http://iap.esa.int/project/security/ng-rmp

    At a time when there is cut backs in health, education and social welfare (and to give a relevant DF example, NS patrol days), what makes you think AC flying hrs are exempt?

    2012 - AC Equipment & Expenses - € 16.287 million
    2013 Estimate - AC Equipment & Expenses - € 13.1 million

    That's almost a 20% cut!
    Very possibly there have been cuts in funding for flying hours, but I remember a time when any patrol hours above a particular threshold in a year attracted extra funds from the EU. The figure was in the region of 1400hrs I never saw the payment amount but there was always a desire to far exceed the threshold!!

    The 20% cut is significant but I would hope that with the significant reduction in GIV and LR45 hours and the removal of the SKA there should be little or no effect on the "front line" aircraft.

  24. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Very possibly there have been cuts in funding for flying hours, but I remember a time when any patrol hours above a particular threshold in a year attracted extra funds from the EU. The figure was in the region of 1400hrs I never saw the payment amount but there was always a desire to far exceed the threshold!!

    The 20% cut is significant but I would hope that with the significant reduction in GIV and LR45 hours and the removal of the SKA there should be little or no effect on the "front line" aircraft.
    AFAIK the EU only paid 50% of the purchase price and that was all.

    It is significant that is correct, I will go back over a few years:

    2008 - € 40.58 million
    2009 - € 19.887 million
    2010 - € 16.8 million
    2011 - € 15.488 million
    2012 - € 16.287 million
    2013 Estimate - € 13.1 million

  25. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    +1
    Same for the NS

    They must be given the power to enforce maritime safety legislation given that it they (and IRCG) that will risk their lives to try and save them (IRCG not having an offshore capability).
    Establish a system comparable to the speed vans where the GS still do the prosecuting on the basis of evidencee gathered by connies.
    It may involve crew giving evidence from time to time but the effect on compliance would be significant.Either way ,in the CASA, the AC have assets that make the inventory of peer leaders are as good as can be got the MP role entrusted to the AC.

  26. #45
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    "Casa Maritime Patrol Aircraft practice formation flying as part of their maritime patrols prior to Flighfest 2013"


  27. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Establish a system comparable to the speed vans where the GS still do the prosecuting on the basis of evidencee gathered by connies.
    It may involve crew giving evidence from time to time but the effect on compliance would be significant.Either way ,in the CASA, the AC have assets that make the inventory of peer leaders are as good as can be got the MP role entrusted to the AC.
    Sounds like an argument for privatisation of Maritime

  28. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatbomb View Post
    Sounds like an argument for privatisation of Maritime
    Same could be said of numerous DF duties unconnected to security/soveriegnty etc.

  29. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    "Casa Maritime Patrol Aircraft practice formation flying as part of their maritime patrols prior to Flighfest 2013"

    Very nice. I presume it was done after they had completed patrolling the Irish EEZ.

  30. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Very nice. I presume it was done after they had completed patrolling the Irish EEZ.
    It was.

    A short clip of Neptune Section practicing some formation flying earlier this week.

    'Charlie 252' and 'Charlie 253' joined up over Kildare after they returned from their Maritime patrols on Wednesday and this video shows them working on a loose formation in preparation for FlightFest next Sunday.

    The formation is led by Sqn Comdr Comdt Conleth Walsh & Capt Fabio Scalici in Charlie 252 and have Capt Brendan O'Dowd & Lt Stephen Connolly in Charlie 253.

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  32. #50
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    Looks like Sept 15th is a good day for illegal fishing and/or smuggling etc.

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