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  • Originally posted by Mick O'Toole View Post
    I did my bit today....
    cheers bloke, you're a star.

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    • Looking at it from the outside - I'd be all for getting out of the place.

      Not because it's dangerous, but because it seems pointless being there: Assad & the Israeli's are co-operating together against a common enemy - the same guys who are directly targeting & kidnapping UN peacekeepers.

      If they're going to stay, they have to be given greater firepower, equipment & better ROE. But what's going on now is.. it's beyond mission creep.

      Oh and I see IS have gone and beheaded another US journalist, kidnapped in Syria.

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      • "You were there Man!"

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        • Well done Mick.About time the truth came out.
          My only concern is that I hope all the troops families already knew these details.
          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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          • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
            History would suggest otherwise.
            To paraphrase all those investment ads, past performance is no indication of future results.
            "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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            • Hey Mick,

              The Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces has said that, at present, the next contingent of Irish troops are due to be deployed in the Golan Heights at the end of the month.

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              • Out of curiosity could the UN send a mission of suitably trained soldiers to rescue the Fijian's i.e ARW or Other special operation groups etc... Or what would happen if negotiation failed who would rescue them?

                The Assad Syrians or Israelis?

                This is hypothetical of course just wondering what can be done for them poor sods..

                If this is OPSEC please remove.
                British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
                Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

                [As the British flag comes down]

                Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

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                • Originally posted by The Blue Max View Post
                  ...This is hypothetical of course just wondering what can be done for them poor sods...
                  even if the resolutions enabling UNDOF allowed operations outside UNDOF zone (i've no idea..), i rather doubt anyone would lend an SF/SOF with troop carrying and attack helicopters to UN command for such an op - far more likely would be a UN request for 'any interested parties' to assist the mission in securing the Fijians. so someone else - Septics, Israeli's etc.. would then just do it without any reference to the UN command structure, both because they wouldn't want any chance of even an inadvertant leak, and because they aren't exactly enamoured of the UN.

                  i would suggest that stuff falls well outside OPSEC - anyone who thinks AN haven't considered the possibility of a rescue attempt is niave..
                  Last edited by ropebag; 2 September 2014, 21:10.

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                  • When I heard on the radio this evening that they (the Irish) do not have heavy weapons of any note, I just thought, those Fijians are ****ed. Israel is not going to risk it's men to rescue UN people, but the Syrian Govt might, to score brownie points, as well as clean out the rebels.

                    regards
                    GttC

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                    • the only people with the ISTAR capability to find them are the US, Israeli's, UK, Saudi's and Jordanians - with the Jordanians and Saudi's very much in last place.

                      wouldn't be that surprised if the Israeli's do it - it would give them good publicity when they could do with it, it would reduce the number of fundy nutjobs in the world, and it quietly underlines the fact that are still the big dog in the desert. the US might also have a go - Barry is in political hot water over not having a strategy or even a desired end state in Iraq, he could do with a good clean win, and rescuing UN hostages is about as clean a win as its possible to get.

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                      • Originally posted by Buck View Post
                        The full story will never get published for fear of the crusty backlash.

                        "So let me get this straight. The army used actual weapons to shoot people?!"
                        Originally posted by Mick O'Toole View Post
                        I did my bit today. I am now in Groundhog myself...

                        *Mick makes a bollocks out of Buck

                        Made a bollocks out of me No complaints though.
                        I knew a simple soldier boy.....
                        Who grinned at life in empty joy,
                        Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
                        And whistled early with the lark.

                        In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
                        With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
                        He put a bullet through his brain.
                        And no one spoke of him again.

                        You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
                        Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
                        Sneak home and pray you'll never know
                        The hell where youth and laughter go.

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                        • Really proud of the way our Defence Forces personnel have carried out their role. It is amazing that Enda Kenny and co are up in arms about the change of terms / mandate and are now so publically worried about the security of the our people and Equipment. Where did they think that they were sending them to, Mosney?. I have never served in an army but surely it is not the worst thing that could happen to get a bit of action in a skirmish. Would like to see in depth details made available. Cant understand how 43 Fijian soldiers were kidnapped. Sure those guys are scary enough even without their weapons.

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                          • An interesting discussion on a number of points. Firstly I think we should be careful about comparisons between ourselves, our nearest neighbour and HM forces. The reality is that the People of the UK expect a good old war every generation and will wholeheartedly support it, it comes with being a global player with significant military resources and a colonial / expeditionary past .

                            We have different cultures particularly in respect of military service and employment of military resources due to our shared history .... Whilst I dearly love and cherish the political class, there is one thing that they are very much in touch with it and that is public opinion. Don't forget we had to insert some gobblety gook about neutrality / conscription into the referendum to get the Nice treaty passed as research had showed that one of the principle reasons it had failed first time was a belief it created a European army. Whether we like it or not ( and I think most of us here don't) , the Irish population don't want to see their military engaged in hostile action overseas and taking significant casualties. We are happy with touchy feely UN ops and a little shot of NATO every now and again with even our ISAF deployment usually framed as CIED lads only, ie non combatants generally out there saving lives, which is considered more palatable.

                            In fairness our Press Office types do a good job and it's not credible to think that anybody in uniform can contradict the Minister or govt, either on or off the record. press officers have been moved sideways ( shafted) in the last for such transgressions. The Minister was out on Friday talking about reviewing our involvement in UNDOF followed up by the Taoiseach.....that's game , set and match against anyone in uniform saying anything different.....the politico has now set the agenda ( which in fairness is his job).

                            Mick is a great supporter of the DF ( to his and his newspapers great credit), but a lot of the incidents have already been reported from the last rotation and if you add the incidents in the last couple of days we get today's article. That said, always great to read something positive and please keep up the good work.

                            As soldiers we want to do our job first ..... And secondly we want to be appreciated by the public , unfortunately I would be surprised if our involvement with UNDOF is not coming to an end ( the mandate is of course to separate Israel and Syria, not rub shoulders with any passing rebel group) .... UNDOF may have outlived its utility and raisin d'ĂȘtre ( love using the French words) .

                            We have to accept that all this publicity about Irish soldiers doing a great job overseas has led to our minister and Taoiseach publicly talking about withdrawing them from the op. It makes me wonder if the Fijians hadn't been kidnapped ( creating the international news story) and we had 'only' done the job of extracting the Filipiinos under fire and returning fire..... Would our political masters be talking about withdrawal now ? I don't think so ..... as Ropebag identified It's the way that smaller countries like Ireland operate, not right or wrong, just different.

                            Don't expect any SF ops to release the unfortunate Fijis , they are in militant heartland now so an op is tactically impossible and strategically that sort of aggressive action in a PSO scenario would be counter productive and would lead to significant and far worse reprisals against the wider force unless we accept UNDOF is finished and withdraw it first.

                            Seen as I'm ranting well, it's important to remember that criticising the UN is de facto criticising the international community, you can't say the UN is useless without accepting the problems come from the membership and that includes everyone..... From the UK , the US , France through Ireland to Burkina Faso and Indonesia etc etc. the UN fails to act because that's exactly what it's member will by their actions and inactions .

                            Rant over , apologies!

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                            • I wonder if we would continue to contribute if the UNSC passed a resolution giving UNDOF the mandate to prevent the Syrian Civil War spreading into the AO (ie UNDOF had to confront/disarm rebels etc)?

                              I strongly believe that this is a ploy to the UN, why? The situation hasn't greatly changed (similar things were happening prior to our participation).

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                              • I suppose Dev you are heading into a classic mission creep issue there, UNDOF is to monitor a ceasefire and police a de militarised zone between Syria and Israel. I reckon that adding the rebel factor ( there are over 1,000 such groups ) would be a step too far and further complicate a terminally ill mission.

                                As for the militants motives, they were global news for a couple of days to highlight their existence and aims. they also could probably do with less UN types around, make their ops a lot simpler if they only had one team operating in their AO .... This kidnapping is pushing UNDOF closer to the edge which is ultimately of benefit to the rebels....

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