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  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
    actually, the minister and the GOC have denied that a very specific event happened, which to my understand was not what was alleged to have happened.

    the suggestion/allegation (or my understanding of it) is that both Israeli and Syrian Artillery fired on AN forces who were at the time either engaging or in proximity with, UNDOF forces. initially, no one seemed to question it, and indeed accepted it as the obvious course of events given the situation.

    then the Minister and GOC denied that Israeli troops had rescued Irish troops - which, to me (and to anyone with even the vaguest military knowledge), has a very specific meaning - and not one that has anything whatsoever to do with what is alleged to have happened.

    lets say i accuse you of generally chatting up my wife, and you reply that you have never shagged my wife in the Dublin airport hotel, that she did not go like a steamtrain, and that you did not eat raspberry icecream from her firm, but still full, breasts.

    would that not be a little curious?
    This is the paragraph in the article.

    " Position 60 was the headquarters of the Filipino UN contingent that was later rescued with the help of Irish and other UN troops, supported by the Israeli army, after they came under attack by the jihadis in August".

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    • Originally posted by sofa View Post
      This is the paragraph in the article.

      " Position 60 was the headquarters of the Filipino UN contingent that was later rescued with the help of Irish and other UN troops, supported by the Israeli army, after they came under attack by the jihadis in August".
      to me, 'support' covers pretty much anything other than direct physical engagement - so it could mean artillery fire, ISTAR, EW, even just the promise of CASEVAC if it was required - the one thing the article specifically excludes is the Israelis turing up on the ground with the UN contingents. its clear its the Irish and Filipino troops doing the 'rescuing' because it says that in black and white, but its also pretty clear that 'support' was provided by the Israelis, and its unlikely to mean moral support in the form of petitions and placards...

      of course, only the deeply cynical would wonder why the the Minister and DOD are so keen to deny what no one has alleged, while staying strangely silent on the actual suggestion/allegation...

      and if you want a political motive, just read some of the post here on the subject - some people here are more offended by the idea of active or passive cooperation with the Israeli's than they would be if you broke into their houses and pissed on their kids.
      Last edited by ropebag; 6 October 2014, 00:17.

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      • If its in the papers it must be true

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        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
          If its in the papers it must be true
          no, not at all - however if its in the papers, its not denied but something else is, then that might well mean it is true.

          or does your curiousity about the disparity between what the article said, and what the minister claimed it said not really interest your mind?

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          • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
            to me, 'support' covers pretty much anything other than direct physical engagement - so it could mean artillery fire, ISTAR, EW, even just the promise of CASEVAC if it was required - the one thing the article specifically excludes is the Israelis turing up on the ground with the UN contingents. its clear its the Irish and Filipino troops doing the 'rescuing' because it says that in black and white, but its also pretty clear that 'support' was provided by the Israelis, and its unlikely to mean moral support in the form of petitions and placards...

            of course, only the deeply cynical would wonder why the the Minister and DOD are so keen to deny what no one has alleged, while staying strangely silent on the actual suggestion/allegation...

            and if you want a political motive, just read some of the post here on the subject - some people here are more offended by the idea of active or passive cooperation with the Israeli's than they would be if you broke into their houses and pissed on their kids.
            And that's without considering the Daley/Wallace/McLaughlin/Barrett revolutionary quartet.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              actually, the minister and the GOC have denied that a very specific event happened, which to my understand was not what was alleged to have happened.

              the suggestion/allegation (or my understanding of it) is that both Israeli and Syrian Artillery fired on AN forces who were at the time either engaging or in proximity with, UNDOF forces. initially, no one seemed to question it, and indeed accepted it as the obvious course of events given the situation.

              then the Minister and GOC denied that Israeli troops had rescued Irish troops - which, to me (and to anyone with even the vaguest military knowledge), has a very specific meaning - and not one that has anything whatsoever to do with what is alleged to have happened.

              lets say i accuse you of generally chatting up my wife, and you reply that you have never shagged my wife in the Dublin airport hotel, that she did not go like a steamtrain, and that you did not eat raspberry icecream from her firm, but still full, breasts.

              would that not be a little curious?
              Jim Cusack claimed that Irish troops were besieged and would of been killed if the Israelis didn't rescue them saying his sources were senior military people.
              No one else in Ireland, Syria, Israel or with the UN has made such a claim.

              He's clearly having ago at Minister Coveney, the DF and Government this week saying they are keeping what's going on in Syria a secret.
              Islamist rebels decapitated prisoners around the United Nations bases near where Irish troops were serving in Syria, a UN report seen by the Sunday Independent reveals.


              Now that arsehole Eoghan Harris is jumping in to defend his mate Cusack and attacking Minister Coveney also.
              Last Friday was Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement. For Jews this means saying sorry to those you have wronged. But in Irish public life we have to settle for the political pseudo- apology.

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              • To some of the peaceniks, the concept of the Israelis doing some good for our lot is unthinkable. It's uncool to praise the Israelis, which leads to them shrugging the collective shoulder and saying damned if we do, damned if we don't. Personally, I think Coveney et al are bigging up the UN to save face, rather than admit that the Israelis prevented more UN deaths.

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                • The Israelis returned fire when they themselves were engaged - simple!

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                  • An option that the UN should actively consider, ie, when fired upon, reply in kind!

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                    • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                      To some of the peaceniks, the concept of the Israelis doing some good for our lot is unthinkable. It's uncool to praise the Israelis, which leads to them shrugging the collective shoulder and saying damned if we do, damned if we don't. Personally, I think Coveney et al are bigging up the UN to save face, rather than admit that the Israelis prevented more UN deaths.
                      If Jim the jurno is correct. he should keep his mouth shut until after the mission is over, then he can write about it all he likes, in the meantime go along with the

                      military line, and not give the Arab nutcases the idea that the Irish are hand in hand with the Israeli Army and need killing.

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                      • Originally posted by sofa View Post
                        ...and not give the Arab nutcases the idea that the Irish are hand in hand with the Israeli Army and need killing.
                        they already think that - not, you'll notice, that AN and other nutter groups seem that keen to have a pop at the 'little Satan'. i wonder why that might be...

                        sorry, but you're dead wrong on the journalist issue: there are no genune security issues at stake, purely ones of political and military embarrassment. do you not think the public are entitled to know about the compromises UNDOF mission? do you not think the public have the right to make an informed decision about whether they think this mission should continue rather than be spoon-fed a load of bollocks while it goes on (and for how long - 2 years? 3 years? 5 years? 12 years?) and only be presented with the butchers bill when it comes to an end?

                        a blind man in a fur coat in any town in the ME could tell you that UNDOF only functions through the cooperation of Israel over logistics and medical support - the only people the Irish government is trying to keep that a secret from is the Irish public...

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                        • So long as they are being informed with the truth!

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                          • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                            they already think that - not, you'll notice, that AN and other nutter groups seem that keen to have a pop at the 'little Satan'. i wonder why that might be...

                            sorry, but you're dead wrong on the journalist issue: there are no genune security issues at stake, purely ones of political and military embarrassment. do you not think the public are entitled to know about the compromises UNDOF mission? do you not think the public have the right to make an informed decision about whether they think this mission should continue rather than be spoon-fed a load of bollocks while it goes on (and for how long - 2 years? 3 years? 5 years? 12 years?) and only be presented with the butchers bill when it comes to an end?

                            a blind man in a fur coat in any town in the ME could tell you that UNDOF only functions through the cooperation of Israel over logistics and medical support - the only people the Irish government is trying to keep that a secret from is the Irish public...
                            Sometime's it's necessary to delay details (if True or not) in order to keep people safe. An example that comes to mind would be the British press informing everyone that the Argies Air force were releacing there bombs so close to RN ships that the short flight time did not allow the bombs time to arm.

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                            • Originally posted by sofa View Post
                              Sometime's it's necessary to delay details (if True or not) in order to keep people safe. An example that comes to mind would be the British press informing everyone that the Argies Air force were releacing there bombs so close to RN ships that the short flight time did not allow the bombs time to arm.
                              i'd suggest that there is a difference between not immediately discussing certain specifics and attempting to draw a veil over a fundamental componant of a 3 year mission.

                              so its fair not to broadcast the number of helicopters available in theatre on a weekly/daily basis, or not discuss the technicalities of armour upgrades applied - but its not appropriate for a free press, as part of a participatory democracy, to not mention that there are no helicopters available, and never have been and never will be, or that there appears to be a catastrophic breakdown in the relations between the UN and the contributing countries, or that the threat index has gone through the roof for three years and yet the resources available have remained the same as on day one...

                              all of this is about judgements, and about trust - if journalists, and soldiers (who also happen to be citizens..), are to keep their mouths shut about problems that the public ought to know about they have to trust that the govt is working as hard and as fast as possible to fix them, and i'd suggest that when a story breaks about a problem - firefights and ineffective mandate in UNDOF or a lack of helicopters in Afghanistan - its an indication that that trust has gone.

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                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                So long as they are being informed with the truth!
                                Sure... but who's truth ??
                                "On the plains of hesitation, bleach the bones of countless millions, who on the very dawn of victory, laid down to rest, and in resting died.

                                Never give up!!"

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