Defence forces Deployment to UNDOF

[DeV]

We would call that a Battalion (-)

So do we (if a few of an infantry battalions coys are detached). Because we form new units for overseas a infantry group has a different establishment.


That's what I am thinking...

Hmmm... I can't see why the Commander would go to the scene of an incident; he is more useful in the Ops Center effecting C2 while keeping a cool head...

Depends on the situation and the size of the force deployed.

Also given that this is the largest unit we have in the mission, in order to retain a reasonable amount of say in how the unit is deployed, the Irish DF needs to equip the unit with a strong voice at the table. A Lt Col will carry more weight than a Comdt. And while I do not know this guy from Adam, people who do seem to think he is strong individual. I suspect we have sent someone who could easily be a full Colonol.

The Force HQ Coy (ie this IRCON) is the Force Commanders reserve, it is him (or his nominated designated personnel) who deploy it.

[hedgehog]

In the Canadian Army (Infantry), a Coy is commanded by a Major, while a Battalion is commanded by a LCol.

It's interesting and no doubt other Armies do the same. However for this mission we have tweaked and amended as needs must.

[Sluggie]

We have so many Lt Cols we can afford to use them as Majors.

We have so many Lt Cols we can afford to use them as Corporals.

[BANDIT]

We have so many Lt Cols we can afford to use them as Corporals.

there are two issues here re rank.
1. The df have far too many officers and middle level senior officers in particular in comparasion with the boots on the ground. While smaller organization tend not to benefit from economies of scale there is too much duplication and at the same time dispersal of units through out the country. Some of this has to do with , history ATCP commitments but a lot has got to do with keeping the units and the ranks. One example of duplication that has been mentioned before is the failure to have more centralized training say for recruits, three stars etc . The way it is organized is not efficient .


2. As for Syria, I think the post is over ranked a Comdt should lead it. But then just look at the no of Iris army observers, 99% officers wo get jobs overseas. There are just too many officers ad they cost too much

In a good organization Corporals with potential would be spotted and develloped to become good Cols.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Bandit, in the DF, no enlisted man can ever achieve higher than Lt.Colonel, no matter how good he is, because the inbuilt bias of the cadetship system favours cadets first and the great unwashed last, regardless of talent and ability.

regards
GttC

[Fridge Magnet]

Probably the most capable, enigmatic, inspiring and down right best Lt Col in the DF at the moment is BD himself, his 2I/C TC O Brien is another fine and wise choice. Who ever picked this dream team deserves a pat on the back.

Lt Col Delaney will go far and it'll be well deserved.

He's one of the very good ones.

[Cotton]

Well I was standing on parade on tuesday afternoon after rehearsing 3 times that morning because apparently every single general in the defence forces was due to attend the parade, didn't quite work out that way though. Anyway Minister shatter eventually pulls himself away from the bar in the officers mess and begins his inspection of the troops, Noticed quite a few civillians in the crowd who didn't stand when invited too whilst he conducted his inspection. Lt.Col Delaney then stood the troops at ease whilst he began his speech, first time I've not stood to attention whilst the minister is talking, Had Shatter shown any less interest in delivering his clearly prepared by someone speech I think his heart would have stopped beating. Quite a few lads I spoke too said they phased out and simply stopped paying attention to what he was saying.

[GoneToTheCanner]

You can dislike that post of mine all you want. It is a fact that no person who gets an Officer's course from the enlisted ranks can ever rise beyond Lt.Colonel, which is effectively only 5 rungs up the Officer rank ladder. This is a deliberate discrimination in favour of cadetship-sourced Officers. If the late, great Dermot Earley had not done his cadetship, he wouldn't have got to where he ended up, regardless of his genuine ability. The DF, as many have pointed out here, is awash with Officers filling slots normally fielded or supervised by senior NCOs. If anything, it shows that the DF needs a Warrant Officer rank structure, if there an artificial, biased career ceiling imposed on anyone who slides across to Officer rank.

regards
GttC

[DeV]

You can dislike that post of mine all you want. It is a fact that no person who gets an Officer's course from the enlisted ranks can ever rise beyond Lt.Colonel, which is effectively only 5 rungs up the Officer rank ladder. This is a deliberate discrimination in favour of cadetship-sourced Officers. If the late, great Dermot Earley had not done his cadetship, he wouldn't have got to where he ended up, regardless of his genuine ability. The DF, as many have pointed out here, is awash with Officers filling slots normally fielded or supervised by senior NCOs. If anything, it shows that the DF needs a Warrant Officer rank structure, if there an artificial, biased career ceiling imposed on anyone who slides across to Officer rank.

regards
GttC

Lt Col is also only 4 from the top

Most officers (no matter where they came from) are guaranteed captain/commandant

[Goldie fish]

Lt Col is also only 4 from the top

Most officers (no matter where they came from) are guaranteed captain/commandant

4 ranks maybe, but not 4 people.

[Jessup]

I would suspect that Terrier disliked your post because it is factually incorrect and reads as another tired example of the anti officer, chip rather than a pip on the shoulder bias that too often permeates this site. Officer retirement age can be as low as 56 for a Comdt and an officer must have a number of years left to serve to gain promotion in the various senior officer competitions. Therefore, if a Sgt does a CFR course at age 30 then he or she will make Capt by 34, compete for Comdt by 44 and if excellent make LtCol at 52. At that stage there just isn't enough time to accumulate the service as a LtCol or the years left before mandatory retirement to be interviewed for Col or beyond.

The CFR system offers enlisted personnel an opportunity that wasn't available or attractive or successful for them earlier in their lives. The shorter CFR course, skipping the 2/Lt rank, choice of posting, retention of salary until their Officer Pay catches up etc. recognises their prior enlisted service. That service takes time and therefore increases their age upon commissioning. It's nothing to do with bias, it's maths. It's the same in every Military with their CFR system. Many of the older Cadets (Cadet at 27, Lt at 28, Capt at 32) in the recent graduate dominated classes will face the exact same obstacles. Of course the solution is to select a 23 year old Cpl for a CFR course and then wait for the tsunami of redresses to come in. Explain that to the 30 year old Sgt with a Standard Course and twice the service at home and abroad. "Well Sgt the barrack room lawyers aren't happy and this is part of our social engineering agenda".

If you want to have 'Tommy Franks' (a terrible General regardless of provenance but the first enlisted Joint Chief AFAIK) then the enlisted soldier must be brought over to the dark side while young. A significant number of young privates and/or apprentices have been in every Cadet Class since the late 80s. These are very close in age to their peers who are all officers sons or daughters according to almost everyone on this site Many of these are 'young' Comdts now and a number of these will be going for Lt Col shortly while still in their mid forties so watch this space. In fact, one that I would have my money on to reach Col at least is ginger and from Dublin but not related to HH AFAIK.

It's unreasonable to expect the CFR system to produce Colonels or Generals and therefore completely disingenuous to criticise it for not doing so. I've previously posted in favour of a Warrant Officer scheme but that is completely unconnected to this topic. I don't give a crap whether a Private makes it to General as long as the best candidate gets the job. It has much more chance of happening in the next 15 years than the last 90 years but so what? What's so great about Brig Gen X spending a few years as a Private in his/her late teens or early twenties as opposed to Brig Gen Y who spent that time as a Cadet and 2/Lt?

[trellheim]

although he was a party hat Wully Robertson made it to CIGS during WW1 from enlistment as a trooper and was well respected even though he was a CFR .

Trellheim can ,though, vouch for CFRs not getting promoted much

[DeV]

I would suspect that Terrier disliked your post because it is factually incorrect and reads as another tired example of the anti officer, chip rather than a pip on the shoulder bias that too often permeates this site. Officer retirement age can be as low as 56 for a Comdt and an officer must have a number of years left to serve to gain promotion in the various senior officer competitions. Therefore, if a Sgt does a CFR course at age 30 then he or she will make Capt by 34, compete for Comdt by 44 and if excellent make LtCol at 52. At that stage there just isn't enough time to accumulate the service as a LtCol or the years left before mandatory retirement to be interviewed for Col or beyond.

The CFR system offers enlisted personnel an opportunity that wasn't available or attractive or successful for them earlier in their lives. The shorter CFR course, skipping the 2/Lt rank, choice of posting, retention of salary until their Officer Pay catches up etc. recognises their prior enlisted service. That service takes time and therefore increases their age upon commissioning. It's nothing to do with bias, it's maths. It's the same in every Military with their CFR system. Many of the older Cadets (Cadet at 27, Lt at 28, Capt at 32) in the recent graduate dominated classes will face the exact same obstacles. Of course the solution is to select a 23 year old Cpl for a CFR course and then wait for the tsunami of redresses to come in. Explain that to the 30 year old Sgt with a Standard Course and twice the service at home and abroad. "Well Sgt the barrack room lawyers aren't happy and this is part of our social engineering agenda".

If you want to have 'Tommy Franks' (a terrible General regardless of provenance but the first enlisted Joint Chief AFAIK) then the enlisted soldier must be brought over to the dark side while young. A significant number of young privates and/or apprentices have been in every Cadet Class since the late 80s. These are very close in age to their peers who are all officers sons or daughters according to almost everyone on this site Many of these are 'young' Comdts now and a number of these will be going for Lt Col shortly while still in their mid forties so watch this space. In fact, one that I would have my money on to reach Col at least is ginger and from Dublin but not related to HH AFAIK.

It's unreasonable to expect the CFR system to produce Colonels or Generals and therefore completely disingenuous to criticise it for not doing so. I've previously posted in favour of a Warrant Officer scheme but that is completely unconnected to this topic. I don't give a crap whether a Private makes it to General as long as the best candidate gets the job. It has much more chance of happening in the next 15 years than the last 90 years but so what? What's so great about Brig Gen X spending a few years as a Private in his/her late teens or early twenties as opposed to Brig Gen Y who spent that time as a Cadet and 2/Lt?

I'm with you on more or less everything however there has only ever been 9 CFR courses!

Graduates are commissioned as Lts.

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?10943-Potential-Officers-Course-(CFR)

[GoneToTheCanner]

Jessup, by using cadetships slots for exprivates or NCOs, you are missing the point. I'm talking about individuals who take the Officers' course from the ranks, not cadetships. I still stand by my assertion that any who goes across cannot rise beyond Lt/Colonel. I was in a DF that used to shunt people up the ladder after a single year in the job, so saying that promotion candidates sit out the full term of each rank is wrong.

regards
GttC

[Bravo20]

I would suspect that Terrier disliked your post because it is factually incorrect and reads as another tired example of the anti officer, chip rather than a pip on the shoulder bias that too often permeates this site. Officer retirement age can be as low as 56 for a Comdt and an officer must have a number of years left to serve to gain promotion in the various senior officer competitions. Therefore, if a Sgt does a CFR course at age 30 then he or she will make Capt by 34, compete for Comdt by 44 and if excellent make LtCol at 52. At that stage there just isn't enough time to accumulate the service as a LtCol or the years left before mandatory retirement to be interviewed for Col or beyond.

The CFR system offers enlisted personnel an opportunity that wasn't available or attractive or successful for them earlier in their lives. The shorter CFR course, skipping the 2/Lt rank, choice of posting, retention of salary until their Officer Pay catches up etc. recognises their prior enlisted service. That service takes time and therefore increases their age upon commissioning. It's nothing to do with bias, it's maths. It's the same in every Military with their CFR system. Many of the older Cadets (Cadet at 27, Lt at 28, Capt at 32) in the recent graduate dominated classes will face the exact same obstacles. Of course the solution is to select a 23 year old Cpl for a CFR course and then wait for the tsunami of redresses to come in. Explain that to the 30 year old Sgt with a Standard Course and twice the service at home and abroad. "Well Sgt the barrack room lawyers aren't happy and this is part of our social engineering agenda".

If you want to have 'Tommy Franks' (a terrible General regardless of provenance but the first enlisted Joint Chief AFAIK) then the enlisted soldier must be brought over to the dark side while young. A significant number of young privates and/or apprentices have been in every Cadet Class since the late 80s. These are very close in age to their peers who are all officers sons or daughters according to almost everyone on this site Many of these are 'young' Comdts now and a number of these will be going for Lt Col shortly while still in their mid forties so watch this space. In fact, one that I would have my money on to reach Col at least is ginger and from Dublin but not related to HH AFAIK.

It's unreasonable to expect the CFR system to produce Colonels or Generals and therefore completely disingenuous to criticise it for not doing so. I've previously posted in favour of a Warrant Officer scheme but that is completely unconnected to this topic. I don't give a crap whether a Private makes it to General as long as the best candidate gets the job. It has much more chance of happening in the next 15 years than the last 90 years but so what? What's so great about Brig Gen X spending a few years as a Private in his/her late teens or early twenties as opposed to Brig Gen Y who spent that time as a Cadet and 2/Lt?

Pull the other one it has bells on. It is a RACO policy not to encourage CFRs (straight from a former RACO presidents mouth, of course he will deny it). I have also heard a couple of missed out Captains (due to the embargo) stating quite categorically that redresses will be made if any of those jumped up NCOs get Captain ahead them. The attitude prevails and is endemic.