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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    They should publish it to some extend I think, possibly at the end of a tour (thinking of a UNIFIL Bn in the 90s they had the number of SHOOTREPs, SHELLREPs, FIRING CLOSE etc in it). Maybe something like that ?

    But what about the family of those on the next chalk ?

    It's a double edged sword

    It would get families worried
    Educate those who think the DF don't do anything overseas
    Give ammo to those who oppose troops overseas
    Shellreps?? never heard of those..

    Comment


    • Think it was in it

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Think it was in it
        There was no shellrep, not in UNIFIL.

        Comment


        • This is interesting. I have heard lots of rumours. In fact, there are some things I am pretty satisfied actually happened, but the necessary proof is missing. Personally, I take the view that Irish people should be told exactly what is happening over there, and I've never experienced a clamp on something so tight as UNDOF. I do twitter searches all the time on UNDOF and regularly check foreign language media. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's very frustrating for us. We all suspect - know - things are happening, but nobody is saying anything. A complete closed shop.

          Now, if people take the view that there is no point worrying the families back home, I understand that but disagree with it. Good or bad, I think the Irish people need to know what is happening to their military personnel overseas.

          Anyway, I'm slogging away on it. As are others...



          www.twitter.com/mickthehack

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mick O'Toole View Post


            Now, if people take the view that there is no point worrying the families back home, I understand that but disagree with it. Good or bad, I think the Irish people need to know what is happening to their military personnel overseas.

            Agree with Mick 100%.

            Personally I don't give a toss about public opinion. They can all make their little placards and protest all they want about involvement in overseas conflicts. But ignorance is not bliss where families are concerned. They need to know exactly what is happening, where their kin are going and what they are doing. They deserve the the right to be able to mentally prepare themselves for a worst case scenario.

            If you constantly spin the line that "its grand, there is nothing to worry about, all we will be doing is observing, playing footy with the orphans and helping build a school or two" the impact on them in a worst case scenario will be infinity more devastating because they were misinformed and in no way expected it. They will not be able to comprehend how their kin, who they saw a few months ago, fit healthy and happy are now dead.

            You do NOT blow it out of proportion, you do NOT spin them all the ridiculous war stories being told in the mess but you do need to be honest with them. By the nature of the chosen profession the risk to life and limb is a reality.

            Despite my personal feelings about public opinion they also need to be well informed. The effect of a major incident involving loss of life on an ignorant public will result in an outburst of emotion and outrage that could topple governments. Extreme example but a reality.

            The media is a double edged sword but I would rather the SF types protesting Ad Nauseam to the politicians who are paid handsomely to listen to these protests, than see a nation dumbstruck and shocked at the sight of a ramp ceremony involving multiple casualties from a conflict they knew absolutely nothing about.
            Last edited by FMP; 17 July 2014, 07:40.
            We travel not for trafficking alone,
            By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
            For lust of knowing what should not be known,
            We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

            Comment


            • Mick, simple - but hypothetical - question:

              if the media - RTE, IT etc... got access to helmet-cam type footage of Irish troops fighting, or being shot at, in Syria on UN duty, would they publish it?

              if so, would they publish it even if it was clear the government would prefer them not to?

              if so, and the footage undermined either government statements on capability, or the wisdom of wider defence policy, would they publish it?

              and a wider question - is there an appetite within the Irish media to discuss Defence/Overseas policy, but without the kind of headline-grbbing material to put on the front page/first item, that debate can't really get kick started?

              thanks - i'd be very interested to hear your views...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mick O'Toole View Post
                This is interesting. I have heard lots of rumours. In fact, there are some things I am pretty satisfied actually happened, but the necessary proof is missing. Personally, I take the view that Irish people should be told exactly what is happening over there, and I've never experienced a clamp on something so tight as UNDOF.
                I understand the desire to avoid worrying families but we have to look at the bigger picture and the truthful picture. I agree with you fully. The situation must be reported. The downside of not reporting is that the usual inaccurate conclusions will be leaped at gleefully i.e. the begrudging 'our troops are enjoying themselves in the sun, nothing ever happens to them, isn't well for them, waste of taxpayers' money etc. etc. etc.'
                If what is rumoured to be happening is happening then report it in full. Show our guys doing the business. Show our guys being the professional soldiers that they are taking and returning fire. Our PR machine constantly reminds the public that they are going to high risk areas, but our public are cynical, begrudging and forgetful.
                Show the situation fully. Why should our reporting be different to any other country reporting on the cost of soldiering in Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

                Why should we tolerate some of the inane reporting that we have had to suffer with soldiers talking about how they are getting Tayto Crisps, how mingy men don't want the Irish to move from South Lebanon in case they lose money, baby kissing patrols and all that dreadful, cringing crap.

                Comment


                • Some really interesting and valid points of views being raised, and I am all for positive publicity that shows our Defence Force as the positive force for good that they are.

                  However,hypothetically if we put a go pro (I am so much of a gadget nerd) on a few lads and film a patrol that gets hit up and returns fire- and that footage os subsequently released, we really have to ask what do we hope to acheive;

                  Is it

                  -the governement will increase the defence budget-
                  thats not going to happen. The personal equipment our troops have is second to none, however the likes of air support is a major requirement. So if in fact it came down to the public clamouring that the govt buy a few apaches to support the lads in Syria. The Government will just pull us out of UNDOF and say they wont risk blah blah and save a fortune.

                  -is it to garner more support from the public
                  Those that dont understand the role of the DF will never understand the role of the DF. You are quite literally hoping that John public will decide that X amount spent on Soldiers will be preferable to X amount spent on homeless, new childrens hospital, basis of tax cuts, bassis of social welfare increases etc. The majority will simply say lets save the moeny and bring the trrops home and lets do no more overseas jollies.

                  Its interesting to note the comments and observations that come after the Air Corp post pictures from their maritime patrols. These pictures are Chris Hadfield type stunning and captivating, they show us what an amazingly gorgeous COuntry we have- as digital pics they cost feck all, and they are shared by the AC to us the general public. Yet the cry of "why do we need an Army" is the constant comment. DO you really think that footage from UNDOF is going to suddenly lead to an epiphany for Paddy Slobguts and he will just go thats why we need an Army.

                  I think what will happen is that families at home will now worry more and I would fear that any footage could be used against us- for example if a patrol was hit up and returned fire, even warning shots- then "bad guys" would now have the ammuniton to say - The Irish are also shooting at our Muslim brothers. Now we are in (some peoples view) the same as the rest.

                  I really do think that we need more positive PR and the press guys are doing a great job.

                  I should stress that as an old fart I dooubt I will serve in any more mission areas and the only worry my family have is that I will actually come home and stink the place out.

                  Maybe this is a decision for the men and women who will actually serve in this and other type missions.
                  Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                  Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                  The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                  The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                  The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                  Are full of passionate intensity.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                    Mick, simple - but hypothetical - question:

                    if the media - RTE, IT etc... got access to helmet-cam type footage of Irish troops fighting, or being shot at, in Syria on UN duty, would they publish it?

                    if so, would they publish it even if it was clear the government would prefer them not to?

                    if so, and the footage undermined either government statements on capability, or the wisdom of wider defence policy, would they publish it?

                    and a wider question - is there an appetite within the Irish media to discuss Defence/Overseas policy, but without the kind of headline-grbbing material to put on the front page/first item, that debate can't really get kick started?

                    thanks - i'd be very interested to hear your views...



                    In a heartbeat, to be honest. There might be the only proviso that I would have to protect whoever gave it to me. So if they could be traced from it then I couldn't see how I could use it.
                    Otherwise, i would go for it.



                    www.twitter.com/mickthehack

                    Comment


                    • Its great to see a good rational and intellegent debate where all sides are listned to and I havent been banned for losing my head and calling into question the paternity of othes. Finally I am maturing.
                      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                      Are full of passionate intensity.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                        Its great to see a good rational and intellegent debate where all sides are listned to and I havent been banned for losing my head and calling into question the paternity of othes. Finally I am maturing.
                        And, nobody is questioning your paternity. Well done HH.

                        Comment


                        • Kieran will no doubt post this on the politics thread but I thought this perfectly reflects the mentality I referred to earlier :

                          533. To ask the Minister for Defence the reason his Department is planning to spend €4 million on upgrading the Irish Army air defence missile system in view of the fact that the army has stated it is unlikely the missile system will be used to take out enemy aircraft at a time where funds are so urgently needed in areas such as health, education, social welfare and so on; and if he will make a statement on the matter. (Richard Boyd Barrett)
                          “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
                          ― Thucydides

                          Comment


                          • Do you know it's probably one of the few threads where everyone of us is right. Except APOD and that's because he supports Munster.
                            Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                            Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                            The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                            The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                            The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                            Are full of passionate intensity.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Shaqra View Post
                              Kieran will no doubt post this on the politics thread but I thought this perfectly reflects the mentality I referred to earlier :

                              533. To ask the Minister for Defence the reason his Department is planning to spend €4 million on upgrading the Irish Army air defence missile system in view of the fact that the army has stated it is unlikely the missile system will be used to take out enemy aircraft at a time where funds are so urgently needed in areas such as health, education, social welfare and so on; and if he will make a statement on the matter. (Richard Boyd Barrett)
                              Dear Richard,

                              The next time the US, Britain, Chinese etc. send high level political delegations to Ireland - for trade, for investment, for tourism, for multinational conferences, would you prefer that hundreds of US, British, Chinese soldiers are placed on Irish soil, armed to the teeth in order to protect their dignitaries - all because, we can't? Since in lieu of such a guarantee - they wont come.

                              And we'll just leave aside the fact that Irish troops could face air strikes while on deployment with the UN - and without their own, basic capability to defend themselves, past experience says no-one else is going to bother helping them & they'll be sitting ducks.

                              Cheers,
                              Pym
                              Last edited by pym; 17 July 2014, 21:12.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Shaqra View Post
                                Kieran will no doubt post this on the politics thread but I thought this perfectly reflects the mentality I referred to earlier :

                                533. To ask the Minister for Defence the reason his Department is planning to spend €4 million on upgrading the Irish Army air defence missile system in view of the fact that the army has stated it is unlikely the missile system will be used to take out enemy aircraft at a time where funds are so urgently needed in areas such as health, education, social welfare and so on; and if he will make a statement on the matter. (Richard Boyd Barrett)
                                Rich Boy Barrett is a little rich C%%t .Who will f%£k off to Mummy and Papa's holiday home abroad if shit ever kicks off in the county. W$%^er.

                                Comment

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