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EDA exercise Hot Blade 2013

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Chuck View Post
    The only participation the Dept should have is forwarding the request through DFAT for diplomatic clearance and transmission to the relavent defence attaché.

    DF management *should* reserve the right to approve foreign training once all pertinent factors (budget, logs, equipment, HR etc) have been considered.
    And policy has been considered - it is within Government policy IMHO

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      And policy has been considered - it is within Government policy IMHO
      Policy is guidance and if policy doesn't specifically preclude something, then the waters can be tested. You just need someone with a pair of balls to ask the question and be prepared to justify it.

      You could ream off pages of justification for participation in something like hotblade.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Chuck View Post
        Policy is guidance and if policy doesn't specifically preclude something, then the waters can be tested. You just need someone with a pair of balls to ask the question and be prepared to justify it.

        You could ream off pages of justification for participation in something like hotblade.
        I’d agree and disagree on your definition of policy, you meet to show where what you want to do meets stated policy objectives, that is especially true where resources are scarce.

        To be clear I have no idea what’s involved but I’d imagine that if GOC AC wanted to send 2 x AW139 with aircrew, spares and some techs to Hot blade then he needs to submit a business case.

        Of course, a lot depends on operational requirements (and I assume he should show how he maintains those capabilities while deployed) but if he used phrases like “interoperability with EU, UN and PfP partners”, “improve standard of training”, “improve ability to respond to a terrorist incident”, “in situations that cannot be replicated in Ireland” etc etc ..... and he references specific paragraphs in WP15 and the latest DoD/DF Strategic Statement (plus has approval from DCOS) then he has made a much better case as far as DoD are concerned than if he says “learn new TTPs in order to be able to operate on COMAO”.

        You need to be able to justify it and sell it as a good idea (and their idea (see the WP and Strategy Statement)).


        Of course, that is not to say that he didn’t
        Last edited by DeV; 20 June 2018, 16:28.

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        • #34
          Someone mentioned Alouettes earlier...... Portugal used 3 during Hot Blades 18

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Someone mentioned Alouettes earlier...... Portugal used 3 during Hot Blades 18
            The Alouette saw a lot of action over the years. Hot and high is it's element. I think the Rhodesians fitted a cannon in the cabin once.

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            • #36
              The Indians still use their version of the Alouette II, which is basically an Alouette II, with a III's engine and gearbox. Tough as an old boot, easy to service and keep running. Why not?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                I’d agree and disagree on your definition of policy, you meet to show where what you want to do meets stated policy objectives, that is especially true where resources are scarce.

                To be clear I have no idea what’s involved but I’d imagine that if GOC AC wanted to send 2 x AW139 with aircrew, spares and some techs to Hot blade then he needs to submit a business case.

                Of course, a lot depends on operational requirements (and I assume he should show how he maintains those capabilities while deployed) but if he used phrases like “interoperability with EU, UN and PfP partners”, “improve standard of training”, “improve ability to respond to a terrorist incident”, “in situations that cannot be replicated in Ireland” etc etc ..... and he references specific paragraphs in WP15 and the latest DoD/DF Strategic Statement (plus has approval from DCOS) then he has made a much better case as far as DoD are concerned than if he says “learn new TTPs in order to be able to operate on COMAO”.

                You need to be able to justify it and sell it as a good idea (and their idea (see the WP and Strategy Statement)).


                Of course, that is not to say that he didn’t
                cant fault your logic.

                I suppose I mean that if policy doesn't strictly forbid something then it is open to probing. Some things just take a little persuasion and in the current era, throw in a few buzzwords for good measure.

                You would be astonished at the things that require business cases and the hoops that must be jumped through for the smallest thing.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  Edited my post

                  All I’m saying is that if the hours were available and we wanted to exercises flying a 105 battery from Cork to the Glen, they would probably have to put a tanker in Cork and Kilworth.

                  Medium lift they are not

                  The Government policy not to deploy AC assets overseas changed with WP15.

                  The final 2 in the tender were the AW139 and Black Hawk.... what does that tell you (at DoD level).. having said that we would have ended up with max 4 Black Hawks.

                  Even if there was a politically desire to deploy 2 AW139s to Lebanon... we don’t have the personnel.
                  Blackhawks at the time only had Analog cockpits. Digital conversions where available but at a higher cost.
                  But sill no excuse for buying a green coloured taxi

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                  • #39
                    Any ways. what if the Aer Corp had being given the permission to go . How would they have transported the two choppers down to the meet.
                    Thinking distance to travel and not needing a overhaul when they get there.?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by sofa View Post
                      Any ways. what if the Aer Corp had being given the permission to go . How would they have transported the two choppers down to the meet.
                      Thinking distance to travel and not needing a overhaul when they get there.?
                      everyone else manages to fly helicopters around Europe withought needing to either put them on C-17's or take them apart every 15 minutes - it'll fly about 700 miles with just 3 crew and personal luggage, so probably Baldonnel to Odiham, Odiham to somewhere between la Rochelle and Bordeaux, and then to Portugal. you'd need support, whether a C-235 or you could probably persuade some politically acceptable EU state to provide a C-130 for the job.

                      you could cut a large corner by flying from Baldonnel to France direct, but thats a long overwater journey.

                      you might be able to stick two in an A400M - not sure about that, you can certainly put two Tigers or two Apache in one...

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                      • #41
                        oh, and to be clear, the UK has offered airlift - both training and real life log spt - as has France, and as has Sweden.

                        all rebuffed.

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                        • #42
                          You could do it in a day, easily. If they can sit at 140 kts for two hours, they'd be in Cherbourg from Dublin in a couple of hours (mil base there). Top up, have a pee, move on. So much of Europe can easily be reached inside a day's journey, all it takes is patience and a bit of flight planning......as Chuck said, the curse of having to make "business cases" for the slightest thing is the bane of modern commercial/industrial life. Bean counters have more sway than career soldiers.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            You could do it in a day, easily. If they can sit at 140 kts for two hours, they'd be in Cherbourg from Dublin in a couple of hours (mil base there). Top up, have a pee, move on. So much of Europe can easily be reached inside a day's journey, all it takes is patience and a bit of flight planning......as Chuck said, the curse of having to make "business cases" for the slightest thing is the bane of modern commercial/industrial life. Bean counters have more sway than career soldiers.
                            They could also have used Lanveoc NAS just south of Brest, it is home to NH-90's, Lynx's, AS365/565's and EC120's...........

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                            • #44
                              FTS deployed at least 2 PC9s to Waterford for joint ex’s for a week according to Facebook

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                              • #45
                                Three, shooting practise at Galley Head.

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