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EDA exercise Hot Blade 2013

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ropebag View Post
    if they have no military role, and they stop having to be crewed, maintained and have spares bought for them - all coming out of the Defence budget - would that be a bad thing?
    And if they aren't replaced then?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
      And if they aren't replaced then?
      if they have no military role, does it matter?

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      • #18
        The Don has previous history of letting aircraft and equipment rot rather than buy spares for it, Gazelles, Fougas and piston engines being a case in point. Don't encourage those who would cut the place to shreds if they thought they could. Even if those men had gone without an aircraft, they could have seen operational practices up close and reported back.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          Don't encourage those who would cut the place to shreds if they thought they could...
          but if they have no military role, and all they do is suck money out of the defence budget, then why not?

          they are shiny certainly, and they might make you feel as if, almost, the DF is approaching the path to becoming a first world European military - but they aren't really a military asset, they take people to hospital, not soldiers to exercises. you know that, you say it often enough, so lets drop the pretence and spend the money/resource on actual military stuff instead...

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Exactly, while the 139 can carry a 105 underslung, ammo, crew etc etc. It will not carry it any meaningful distance
            Good man DeV.

            If we had proper military helicopters like *squints* SA-316's, it would be worth exercising with European neighbours, potentially even learning something. Instead, let's just sit on our hands and wait until the Chinooks arrive.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by pym View Post
              Good man DeV.

              If we had proper military helicopters like *squints* SA-316's, it would be worth exercising with European neighbours, potentially even learning something. Instead, let's just sit on our hands and wait until the Chinooks arrive.
              the 139's could be a useful asset on operations - you might not use them in frontline roles but theres not an air componant commander alive who thinks he has too many helicopters to help with Log Spt - but they've been in service a decade now and still no one is talking about using them overseas, or even for serious training roles on island. perhaps its time to accept that they aren't going to be used, and that its time to dispence with them while they have some value?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by pym View Post
                Good man DeV.

                If we had proper military helicopters like *squints* SA-316's, it would be worth exercising with European neighbours, potentially even learning something. Instead, let's just sit on our hands and wait until the Chinooks arrive.
                Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                the 139's could be a useful asset on operations - you might not use them in frontline roles but theres not an air componant commander alive who thinks he has too many helicopters to help with Log Spt - but they've been in service a decade now and still no one is talking about using them overseas, or even for serious training roles on island. perhaps its time to accept that they aren't going to be used, and that its time to dispence with them while they have some value?

                Edited my post

                All I’m saying is that if the hours were available and we wanted to exercises flying a 105 battery from Cork to the Glen, they would probably have to put a tanker in Cork and Kilworth.

                Medium lift they are not

                The Government policy not to deploy AC assets overseas changed with WP15.

                The final 2 in the tender were the AW139 and Black Hawk.... what does that tell you (at DoD level).. having said that we would have ended up with max 4 Black Hawks.

                Even if there was a politically desire to deploy 2 AW139s to Lebanon... we don’t have the personnel.

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                • #23
                  Isn't it the Department who says whether we do these things or not ? I'd view things in that light first and foremost
                  "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                  "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                    Isn't it the Department who says whether we do these things or not ? I'd view things in that light first and foremost
                    Absolutely. I'm sick to my teeth of trying to make this point but it keeps falling on deaf ears.

                    The Dept are the very ones who are forcing EAS down the necks of the AC because it is an easy PR win and the asset is already there so for a marginal increase in spending, they have an easy win which results in a pat on the back at government level.

                    Be under no illusion that civvies with no military experience in the dept are making military decisions which have a direct impact on DF personnel.

                    What is required is general staff with balls that aren't afraid to push back and put their own personal ambitions to one side.

                    The dept have eroded the C&C structure along with pay and conditions. Senior officers are receiving instruction from civil servants. Civil servants who will make only safe decisions and decisions that will have the absolute minimum potential for blowback on them it something goes tits up.

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                    • #25
                      The Minister needs to tell DoD that job is to advise on policy.

                      Some of the parts of DoD should really be within DFHQ (with civvies if necessary).

                      @chuck, I’d say the Dept of Health & HSE are more than happy to use AC for EAS rather than arrange a contractor - it saves them a fortune

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        The Minister needs to tell DoD that job is to advise on policy.

                        Some of the parts of DoD should really be within DFHQ (with civvies if necessary).

                        @chuck, I’d say the Dept of Health & HSE are more than happy to use AC for EAS rather than arrange a contractor - it saves them a fortune
                        Of course they are. They have the guaranteed use of an aircraft daily thanks to a SLA and because a SLA will always trump the pongos requirements, there is never a clash.

                        They also have the added bonus of being able go drop the entire service at the drop of a hat if it doesn't suit them because there are no expensive long term contracts.

                        You won't see the HSE or dept of health fork out for a multi million euro service contract like CHC. Didn't stop them forking out a fortune daily (€20k+ per day) for a standby aircraft in Dublin over the last few months since neither the AC or CHC could guarantee transfers. "Different budget" etc they must have a few ex army running the accounts.

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                        • #27
                          Standby aircraft? is that the Learjet parked there for the last few months, and a King Air before that?!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            Standby aircraft? is that the Learjet parked there for the last few months, and a King Air before that?!
                            Yep. All at extortionate expense - €20k+ per day. That's just for the aircraft and crew to position there also. If there is a call out the cost goes up accordingly.

                            The UK's Specialist Air Ambulance Operator - Rapid, global response medical repatriations with a guaranteed bed-to-bed service.


                            CHC also offered to step in with an extra crew after they were stopped by the IAA from mixing SAR/Civil CDPs. €150k per month on top of the existing contract is what was rumoured several months ago.

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                            • #29
                              LIke it or not - staying on topic. I'd expect it to be well within the department's remit to approve participation in external collaborations. That said I can't see why it was pulled. Was there a PQ on this ?
                              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                                LIke it or not - staying on topic. I'd expect it to be well within the department's remit to approve participation in external collaborations. That said I can't see why it was pulled. Was there a PQ on this ?
                                The only participation the Dept should have is forwarding the request through DFAT for diplomatic clearance and transmission to the relavent defence attaché.

                                DF management *should* reserve the right to approve foreign training once all pertinent factors (budget, logs, equipment, HR etc) have been considered.

                                Participation in Hotblade could have meant 2 helis abroad, 2 on maintenance leaving only 2 serviceable. The risk averse civil servants wouldn't like those odds as it may impact EAS.

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