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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The Minister needs to tell DoD that job is to advise on policy.

    Some of the parts of DoD should really be within DFHQ (with civvies if necessary).

    @chuck, I’d say the Dept of Health & HSE are more than happy to use AC for EAS rather than arrange a contractor - it saves them a fortune
    Of course they are. They have the guaranteed use of an aircraft daily thanks to a SLA and because a SLA will always trump the pongos requirements, there is never a clash.

    They also have the added bonus of being able go drop the entire service at the drop of a hat if it doesn't suit them because there are no expensive long term contracts.

    You won't see the HSE or dept of health fork out for a multi million euro service contract like CHC. Didn't stop them forking out a fortune daily (€20k+ per day) for a standby aircraft in Dublin over the last few months since neither the AC or CHC could guarantee transfers. "Different budget" etc they must have a few ex army running the accounts.

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  3. #27
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    Standby aircraft? is that the Learjet parked there for the last few months, and a King Air before that?!

  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Standby aircraft? is that the Learjet parked there for the last few months, and a King Air before that?!
    Yep. All at extortionate expense - €20k+ per day. That's just for the aircraft and crew to position there also. If there is a call out the cost goes up accordingly.

    http://www.capitalairambulance.co.uk

    CHC also offered to step in with an extra crew after they were stopped by the IAA from mixing SAR/Civil CDPs. €150k per month on top of the existing contract is what was rumoured several months ago.

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  6. #29
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    LIke it or not - staying on topic. I'd expect it to be well within the department's remit to approve participation in external collaborations. That said I can't see why it was pulled. Was there a PQ on this ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  8. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    LIke it or not - staying on topic. I'd expect it to be well within the department's remit to approve participation in external collaborations. That said I can't see why it was pulled. Was there a PQ on this ?
    The only participation the Dept should have is forwarding the request through DFAT for diplomatic clearance and transmission to the relavent defence attaché.

    DF management *should* reserve the right to approve foreign training once all pertinent factors (budget, logs, equipment, HR etc) have been considered.

    Participation in Hotblade could have meant 2 helis abroad, 2 on maintenance leaving only 2 serviceable. The risk averse civil servants wouldn't like those odds as it may impact EAS.

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  10. #31
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    The only participation the Dept should have is forwarding the request through DFAT for diplomatic clearance and transmission to the relavent defence attaché.

    DF management *should* reserve the right to approve foreign training once all pertinent factors (budget, logs, equipment, HR etc) have been considered.
    And policy has been considered - it is within Government policy IMHO

  11. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And policy has been considered - it is within Government policy IMHO
    Policy is guidance and if policy doesn't specifically preclude something, then the waters can be tested. You just need someone with a pair of balls to ask the question and be prepared to justify it.

    You could ream off pages of justification for participation in something like hotblade.

  12. #33
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Policy is guidance and if policy doesn't specifically preclude something, then the waters can be tested. You just need someone with a pair of balls to ask the question and be prepared to justify it.

    You could ream off pages of justification for participation in something like hotblade.
    I’d agree and disagree on your definition of policy, you meet to show where what you want to do meets stated policy objectives, that is especially true where resources are scarce.

    To be clear I have no idea what’s involved but I’d imagine that if GOC AC wanted to send 2 x AW139 with aircrew, spares and some techs to Hot blade then he needs to submit a business case.

    Of course, a lot depends on operational requirements (and I assume he should show how he maintains those capabilities while deployed) but if he used phrases like “interoperability with EU, UN and PfP partners”, “improve standard of training”, “improve ability to respond to a terrorist incident”, “in situations that cannot be replicated in Ireland” etc etc ..... and he references specific paragraphs in WP15 and the latest DoD/DF Strategic Statement (plus has approval from DCOS) then he has made a much better case as far as DoD are concerned than if he says “learn new TTPs in order to be able to operate on COMAO”.

    You need to be able to justify it and sell it as a good idea (and their idea (see the WP and Strategy Statement)).


    Of course, that is not to say that he didn’t
    Last edited by DeV; 20th June 2018 at 16:28.

  13. #34
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Someone mentioned Alouettes earlier...... Portugal used 3 during Hot Blades 18

  14. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Someone mentioned Alouettes earlier...... Portugal used 3 during Hot Blades 18
    The Alouette saw a lot of action over the years. Hot and high is it's element. I think the Rhodesians fitted a cannon in the cabin once.

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  16. #36
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    The Indians still use their version of the Alouette II, which is basically an Alouette II, with a III's engine and gearbox. Tough as an old boot, easy to service and keep running. Why not?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I’d agree and disagree on your definition of policy, you meet to show where what you want to do meets stated policy objectives, that is especially true where resources are scarce.

    To be clear I have no idea what’s involved but I’d imagine that if GOC AC wanted to send 2 x AW139 with aircrew, spares and some techs to Hot blade then he needs to submit a business case.

    Of course, a lot depends on operational requirements (and I assume he should show how he maintains those capabilities while deployed) but if he used phrases like “interoperability with EU, UN and PfP partners”, “improve standard of training”, “improve ability to respond to a terrorist incident”, “in situations that cannot be replicated in Ireland” etc etc ..... and he references specific paragraphs in WP15 and the latest DoD/DF Strategic Statement (plus has approval from DCOS) then he has made a much better case as far as DoD are concerned than if he says “learn new TTPs in order to be able to operate on COMAO”.

    You need to be able to justify it and sell it as a good idea (and their idea (see the WP and Strategy Statement)).


    Of course, that is not to say that he didn’t
    cant fault your logic.

    I suppose I mean that if policy doesn't strictly forbid something then it is open to probing. Some things just take a little persuasion and in the current era, throw in a few buzzwords for good measure.

    You would be astonished at the things that require business cases and the hoops that must be jumped through for the smallest thing.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Edited my post

    All I’m saying is that if the hours were available and we wanted to exercises flying a 105 battery from Cork to the Glen, they would probably have to put a tanker in Cork and Kilworth.

    Medium lift they are not

    The Government policy not to deploy AC assets overseas changed with WP15.

    The final 2 in the tender were the AW139 and Black Hawk.... what does that tell you (at DoD level).. having said that we would have ended up with max 4 Black Hawks.

    Even if there was a politically desire to deploy 2 AW139s to Lebanon... we don’t have the personnel.
    Blackhawks at the time only had Analog cockpits. Digital conversions where available but at a higher cost.
    But sill no excuse for buying a green coloured taxi

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  20. #39
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    Any ways. what if the Aer Corp had being given the permission to go . How would they have transported the two choppers down to the meet.
    Thinking distance to travel and not needing a overhaul when they get there.?

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  22. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Any ways. what if the Aer Corp had being given the permission to go . How would they have transported the two choppers down to the meet.
    Thinking distance to travel and not needing a overhaul when they get there.?
    everyone else manages to fly helicopters around Europe withought needing to either put them on C-17's or take them apart every 15 minutes - it'll fly about 700 miles with just 3 crew and personal luggage, so probably Baldonnel to Odiham, Odiham to somewhere between la Rochelle and Bordeaux, and then to Portugal. you'd need support, whether a C-235 or you could probably persuade some politically acceptable EU state to provide a C-130 for the job.

    you could cut a large corner by flying from Baldonnel to France direct, but thats a long overwater journey.

    you might be able to stick two in an A400M - not sure about that, you can certainly put two Tigers or two Apache in one...

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  24. #41
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    oh, and to be clear, the UK has offered airlift - both training and real life log spt - as has France, and as has Sweden.

    all rebuffed.

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  26. #42
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    You could do it in a day, easily. If they can sit at 140 kts for two hours, they'd be in Cherbourg from Dublin in a couple of hours (mil base there). Top up, have a pee, move on. So much of Europe can easily be reached inside a day's journey, all it takes is patience and a bit of flight planning......as Chuck said, the curse of having to make "business cases" for the slightest thing is the bane of modern commercial/industrial life. Bean counters have more sway than career soldiers.

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  28. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    You could do it in a day, easily. If they can sit at 140 kts for two hours, they'd be in Cherbourg from Dublin in a couple of hours (mil base there). Top up, have a pee, move on. So much of Europe can easily be reached inside a day's journey, all it takes is patience and a bit of flight planning......as Chuck said, the curse of having to make "business cases" for the slightest thing is the bane of modern commercial/industrial life. Bean counters have more sway than career soldiers.
    They could also have used Lanveoc NAS just south of Brest, it is home to NH-90's, Lynx's, AS365/565's and EC120's...........

  29. #44
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    FTS deployed at least 2 PC9s to Waterford for joint ex’s for a week according to Facebook

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  31. #45
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    Three, shooting practise at Galley Head.

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  33. #46
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    Been a while since that was used I'm thinking.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  34. #47
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    Been a while since that was used I'm thinking.
    They have fired 105s down there the last couple of years

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