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  • #31
    Chill man

    The PC-9's are very capable for their given roles.
    (The USAF, plus other air forces, use similar aircraft for training/advanced training).
    IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
      Dev in a couple of seconds of googling that you most likely tried to do I came up with this

      Specifications Spitfire (Mk.XIV)
      Maximum speed: 717 km/h, (448 mph, 391 kn)

      Specifications (PC-9M)
      Maximum speed: 593 km/h (368 mph; 320 kn)
      Thanks not sure what came up when I googled

      But your comparing fighters with trainers!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Thanks not sure what came up when I googled

        But your comparing fighters with trainers!
        As were you when you claimed it was 200Kph faster than a Spit?

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        • #34
          I was replying to post 25

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Silver View Post
            Chill man

            The PC-9's are very capable for their given roles.
            (The USAF, plus other air forces, use similar aircraft for training/advanced training).
            ahh yes, the err... novel concept of learning to fly in a fast, manouverable, nimble little thing and then moving onto a multi-engine transport.

            would you like to buy a bridge?

            the PC-9M's could have a very valuable role - they would make superb Recce, Overwatch, and CAS aircraft, and with not much (in aviation terms) cash spent on an ISTAR pod, a basic DAS and a very few bolt-on weapon systems (my suggestions being Hellfire AGM, Guided Hydra 70/CVR7 rockets, and if we're playing, the GBU-59 250lb GPS/LGB), and as many external fuel tanks as you can nail onto the thing.

            they also, because a Hellfire missile just misses that 8,000km range mark, might actually have to leave the Greater Dublin area in order to fulfill that role..

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            • #36
              @ropebag, they are not going to spend the money on any other weapons for the PC-9 but they might stretch to a camera pod or some such surveillance kit. I doubt very much that they'd ever buy an actual aircraft bomb or AGM unless someone in govt takes the leap and orders them to be shipped/ferried to the PDF's next overseas venture.......regarding the numbers of them, I suspect that they bought eight because in line with the Marchetti experience, they expected to lose some plus the Marchetti experience also told them that they would need numbers to cope with sortie generation, because the expected sortie rate of the SF 260s did not always materialise......with regard to converting onto twins, they appear to be of the opinion that there is no need of an interim twin aircraft and all twin conversion is done in a sim/foreign aircraft/a lap of the parish in the Casa. Remember, they have previous form on this issue and ended up in court because of it.

              regards
              GttC

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              • #37
                Correct me if I am wrong people, but is the Air Corps meant to be the air arm of a MILITARY service, if you want air displays[of which I do have a certain fondness for] then get some Pitts specials or resurrect some old aircrafts from our past. For God's sake, and more importantly for the sake of the people who we expect to bear arms in our name, stop this verbal wanking about the PC-9, they have ZERO military capability in their current configuration, they are reasonable trainers, nothing more, if we want MILITARY capability then we must look elsewhere, it makes me sick when our so called minister of defence answers a dail question by saying the CoS has assured him that the AIr Corps has all the equipment necessary to carry out it's functions[ or words to that effect], someone is either a damn liar or a damn fool!
                "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                Illegitimi non carborundum

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                • #38
                  the Chief of Staff is a realist and knows that he will never get the super-duper toys he secretly craves but will get his allowances,expenses and pension that he really wants, so he will nod at the right time, say yes or no as required and will do his duty, regardless of what the AC actually have on hand to do x job. Problem is, every time the AC or DF in general bigs itself up by showing videos of itself airlifting sick people from the raging inferno that is Athlone or putting up water pumps in Chad and all that wholesome stuff, the Minister assumes that they have all they need and everything is tickety-boo, tea and medals all round. The reality is that Mowags are lying idle because the DoD are fed up buying new suspension kits or soldiers are inventing novel new ways to claim off the State for allegedly unfit trucks or PC-9s are grounded for yet another unscheduled engine overhaul. The Minister, in all fairness, has to believe what he is told because naturally, he has to trust that the DoD and the DF leadership are telling him the truth, or at least, a workable version of the truth, so that he can repeat it in the dail and not be made a fool of.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Turkey View Post
                    Correct me if I am wrong people, but is the Air Corps meant to be the air arm of a MILITARY service, if you want air displays[of which I do have a certain fondness for] then get some Pitts specials or resurrect some old aircrafts from our past. For God's sake, and more importantly for the sake of the people who we expect to bear arms in our name, stop this verbal wanking about the PC-9, they have ZERO military capability in their current configuration, they are reasonable trainers, nothing more, if we want MILITARY capability then we must look elsewhere, it makes me sick when our so called minister of defence answers a dail question by saying the CoS has assured him that the AIr Corps has all the equipment necessary to carry out it's functions[ or words to that effect], someone is either a damn liar or a damn fool!
                    oh don't worry, i'm firmly of the view that whoever it was who not only suggested the PC-9M, and then persauded Defence and Finance that it was a military tool goiving millitary capability should be dragged out into the street and shot, but Ireland has them now, it wouldn't get buttons for them on the 2nd hand market, and given certain bolt-on systems would then be a useful, usable asset within current Irish Defence and Foreign policy Doctrine.

                    its probably easier to think of them as a usable asset if you don't think of them as compared to an F-16 or A-10, but think of them as a fixed wing AH-1 Cobra or AH-64 Apache - crew of two, good low speed handling, decent payload of low collateral PGM's. give it a DAS and a decent surveilance/targetting pod and you'd have a genuinely useful and usable platform. and at a tiny fraction of the financial and political cost of a dozen F-16C's...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      They are highly capable training aircraft what would the point be in getting/retaining aircraft just for displays?

                      They do have a very limited military capability, isn't better to have that than rely on the solely the GPMG armed 139s.

                      The Irish public are not willing to take further cutbacks in education and health, as well as increased tax, in order to pay for even light cheap fighters (eg BAe Hawk 100).

                      COS is the primary advisor to the Minister on Defence matters (eg ops), the SG is the primary advisor on Defence policy. So if the SG says that the AC shouldn't be deployed overseas...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        They are highly capable training aircraft what would the point be in getting/retaining aircraft just for displays?

                        They do have a very limited military capability, isn't better to have that than rely on the solely the GPMG armed 139s.

                        The Irish public are not willing to take further cutbacks in education and health, as well as increased tax, in order to pay for even light cheap fighters (eg BAe Hawk 100).

                        COS is the primary advisor to the Minister on Defence matters (eg ops), the SG is the primary advisor on Defence policy. So if the SG says that the AC shouldn't be deployed overseas...
                        agreed Dev they are a training aircraft, which we did not need, we should be farming out our training to another air arm..
                        You are joking about a civilian helicopter armed with a single GPMG, I hope....
                        There is no need for cutbacks in education, but there is in health,[stop paying blank cheque wages to useless consultants with giant egos, and admin who do nothing all day except think up ways of screwing up the system with more useless paperwork,] but we are not discussing health and education here, this is a defence matter. By the way the Hawk 100 serves no real purpose here either so why did you bring it up?
                        Since we have seen sense for a change and are getting our aircrew trained by the RN or USN the pc-9M's could be then updated to carry a reasonable amount of stores as Ropebag suggested, sell the AW139's and buy 4 HH-60 Seahawks to replace them, fire the pillock who selected them, then tell the Air Corps that they will in future be going overseas, and make their plans accordingly.

                        OR

                        Turn both Casa's and the EC135's over to the NS, put Bal' and all the flying school rubbish therein up for sale, hold a tearful, emotional, stand down parade, and move the DF into the 20th century before we waste much more of the 21st.
                        Last edited by Turkey; 8 April 2014, 14:23.
                        "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                        Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                        Illegitimi non carborundum

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          and admin who do nothing all day except think up ways of screwing up the system with more useless paperwork
                          No the admins are the ones who support the Consultants egos.

                          Turn both Casa's and the EC135's over to the NS,
                          Naval Service have no requirement for EC135s, might take your proposed Seahawks though if you can give them a suitable platform and mission.

                          and all the flying school rubbish therein up for sale, hold a tearful, emotional, stand down parade, and move the DF into the 20th century before we waste much more of the 21st.
                          And revert to the old you won't miss it until its gone syndrome

                          Any concept of a modern army without air assets be they fixed wing or rotary overlooks what some of the units in that army require.

                          We need helos, we need lift capacity,maybe not in its current format but getting rid of the AC would solve the shortcomings left by the absence of that organisation role in a modern army.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • #43
                            Sorry Murf, in my annoyance I overstated the case, I didn't mean getting rid of Air assets altogether, just turn the useful ones over to the NS for a start, flog the junk[everything else] let the army then build an air service, without the flying skool mentality*.


                            * As in an air display; get a working air arm first, then have a display...... not this current stupidity '' let's have an air display team, and maybe no one will notice that we have no military air assets what so ever''.
                            "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                            Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                            Illegitimi non carborundum

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Turkey View Post
                              agreed Dev they are a training aircraft, which we did not need, we should be farming out our training to another air arm..
                              You are joking about a civilian helicopter armed with a single GPMG, I hope....
                              There is no need for cutbacks in education, but there is in health,[stop paying blank cheque wages to useless consultants with giant egos, and admin who do nothing all day except think up ways of screwing up the system with more useless paperwork,] but we are not discussing health and education here, this is a defence matter. By the way the Hawk 100 serves no real purpose here either so why did you bring it up?
                              Since we have seen sense for a change and are getting our aircrew trained by the RN or USN the pc-9M's could be then updated to carry a reasonable amount of stores as Ropebag suggested, sell the AW139's and buy 4 HH-60 Seahawks to replace them, fire the pillock who selected them, then tell the Air Corps that they will in future be going overseas, and make their plans accordingly.

                              OR

                              Turn both Casa's and the EC135's over to the NS, put Bal' and all the flying school rubbish therein up for sale, hold a tearful, emotional, stand down parade, and move the DF into the 20th century before we waste much more of the 21st.
                              This country can't afford jet fighters (UAE is get 30xF16s for €195 million (ex ordnance), add to that fuel, training, maintenance, spares, ordnance etc. There is less of a need for them than any aircraft the AC has, the country doesn't even have a suitable range for them!

                              Where are they going to used operationally?

                              This country and it's citizens aren't willing to pay!

                              I brought up the Hawk as a cheaper alternative.

                              Unless things change in the new White Paper, the Government don't want THE AC deployed overseas.
                              Last edited by DeV; 8 April 2014, 15:01.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The country can easily afford jet fighters, since you have brought up the subject, did you buy your €25,000 new car for cash or did you like most people get a 5 year loan?

                                They can be used operationally anywhere depending on type, not an issue.

                                This country and it's citizens aren't even willing to pay ''water tax'', what's your point?

                                The Hawk 100 gives little capacity over the PC-9m's, if you want increased capacity, buy the F/A/T-50........

                                If the government don't want the Air Corps going overseas, then why have an Air Corps, what's the point? that's like buying a rifle and saying ''don't take that out of the packing, you might scratch it''.
                                Last edited by Turkey; 8 April 2014, 15:23.
                                "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                                Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                                Illegitimi non carborundum

                                Comment

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