Air To Ground Gunnery

[DeV]

The AC carries out the roles assigned by Government within the resources provided.

To purchase fighters would mean a 12% increase in the Defence budget to get a squadron and that is before you put them in the air!

In case you haven't noticed, overseas has been cut back!

It was borrowing that got the country into this mess. We should never borrow to pay running costs etc (the cost per flying hour will be multiples of the GIV.

[DeV]

Oh and I have a €5k new car because I live within my means!

[Turkey]

Oh and I have a €5k new car because I live within my means!

Ya missed the point totally.

Anyway, to purchase fighters, since you are continuing to dance on that particular idea's grave would have zero effect on the running budget as it is a capital outlay, a very long term capital outlay, buying an asset that will not deprecate significantly in the long term, and has a life of 30 plus years... Type training costs would raise the total budget a fairly small amount , some of this may well be clawed back by training abroad, combat training with a modern jet using the sidewinder[any model] costs NOTHING extra as no missile is ever fired. Not buying fighters is a political issue, not an economic one!!!

By the way, I noticed overseas being cut back long before you ever did....

Anyway, I was not talking about BUYING F**KING FIGHTERS!!! I was speculating on reconfiguring the PC-9m's to have a real military role, by moving training overseas and freeing the airframes for a more intensive support role.

IT WOULD BE A REALLY GOOD IDEA IF CERTAIN POSTERS ON THIS SITE WOULD READ THE POST THEY ARE COMMENTING ON AND THEN HAVING DONE THAT,TRY TO THINK BEFORE PUTTING THEIR FINGERS ON A KEYBOARD....

[DeV]

Ya missed the point totally.

Anyway, to purchase fighters, since you are continuing to dance on that particular idea's grave would have zero effect on the running budget as it is a capital outlay, a very long term capital outlay, buying an asset that will not deprecate significantly in the long term, and has a life of 30 plus years... Type training costs would raise the total budget a fairly small amount , some of this may well be clawed back by training abroad, combat training with a modern jet using the sidewinder[any model] costs NOTHING extra as no missile is ever fired. Not buying fighters is a political issue, not an economic one!!!

By the way, I noticed overseas being cut back long before you ever did....

Anyway, I was not talking about BUYING F**KING FIGHTERS!!! I was speculating on reconfiguring the PC-9m's to have a real military role, by moving training overseas and freeing the airframes for a more intensive support role.

IT WOULD BE A REALLY GOOD IDEA IF CERTAIN POSTERS ON THIS SITE WOULD READ THE POST THEY ARE COMMENTING ON AND THEN HAVING DONE THAT,TRY TO THINK BEFORE PUTTING THEIR FINGERS ON A KEYBOARD....

I obviously misunderstood you in post 37 when you said look elsewhere.

[Turkey]

Well Dev, to be honest, what I was thinking of was a modern version of the Bronco, I believe Boeing has done a serious amount of private venture development on such an aircraft, but again to be honest, it's only real advantage over a reconfigured PC-9m is having a second engine.......

[Turkey]

One of the old ones:

[GoneToTheCanner]

When there was an attempted coup in Venezuela, some of these were used by the rebels and were shot down by loyal F-16s.

[Turkey]

When there was an attempted coup in Venezuela, some of these were used by the rebels and were shot down by loyal F-16s.

When the 8 PC-9s were new in bal' I arranged for an ex-RAF Mosquito driver to see 'em. His remark was interesting " very pretty. But when the Mossie and me were in our prime I'd have had them all in under 8 mins" or words to that effect.

[balkanhawk]

When the 8 PC-9s were new in bal' I arranged for an ex-RAF Mosquito driver to see 'em. His remark was interesting " very pretty. But when the Mossie and me were in our prime I'd have had them all in under 8 mins" or words to that effect.

I'm sure General Patton would've said something similar about the Mowags!!

[meridian]

The PC-9s practised air to ground firing in the Glen of Immal a while (back and there's thread here somewhere showing that). If memory serves, only guns were used, no rockets. Has that happened anytime since, or was that a once off?

[GoneToTheCanner]

AG firing in the Glen is difficult because even on a good day, cloud cover can make if difficult to keep the target area in sight during the run-in (you are expected to abort if the target becomes obscured as you approach)and the possibility of running into granite always exists, as does the possibility of ricochets. It'd be embarrassing to be hit by your own rounds. Doing it on the beach is much easier as the shots will fall out to sea if you miss and you are not facing a mountain on your run-in and pull-out and Gormo has all the facilities anyway.

[Claudel Hopson]

There was an air firing exercise into the Glen a few years back using guns and rockets, both inert and HE. It was a successful testing of the Glen. I cant add anymore to this for obvious reasons.

[GoneToTheCanner]

They used to use it years ago but Gormo was more useful because you could land there and the turnaround between flights was obviously shorter. Also, local climatic conditions in the Glen are much trickier, because Gormo only has onshore or offshore breezes to worry about, whereas the Glen has low cloud and the effects of terrain on wind to deal with. If the cloudbase is below 3000 feet, which it usually is, (even today) then it makes AG very difficult. That's why they stopped using it years ago. It can be used but within tighter guidelines than Gormo.

[X-RayOne]

AG firing in the Glen is difficult because even on a good day, cloud cover can make if difficult to keep the target area in sight during the run-in (you are expected to abort if the target becomes obscured as you approach)and the possibility of running into granite always exists, as does the possibility of ricochets. It'd be embarrassing to be hit by your own rounds. Doing it on the beach is much easier as the shots will fall out to sea if you miss and you are not facing a mountain on your run-in and pull-out and Gormo has all the facilities anyway.

Should they not be using Gormo as the initial practice area and then progressing to flights in the Glen? Building up experience and skill levels that somewhat approach a usable platform. Make the best use of what they have and all that.

In fairness, if the AG asset was ever to be used then the Glen is a more realistic training environment.....unless the AC are going to be strafing deck chairs on the beach in the future

[GoneToTheCanner]

They have been firing in Gormo since the ice age so there's nothing to be learnt there. You are right in stating that the Glen is more realistic because it is inconveniently hilly, prone to weather and dangerous for low level flight. The AC is very familiar with flying in rugged terrain in Wicklow because it's right on their doorstep........they may even have air-fired at Kilworth in the ancient past. No harm to spread the effort, either.